Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 542
# 91
11-10-2012, 08:14 AM
Been a long while since I've seen one of these...

And they STILL leave me with the same reply: Then play only Klingon, maybe?
Wampaq@Jnoh, Fleet Leader: ..Bloodbath and Beyond 'Iw HaH je Hoch!
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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 598
# 92
11-10-2012, 09:42 PM
One point that is too often overlooked in threads like this is the issue of teamwork. At least within a PvP context, the effectiveness of a given player is directly related to how well his/her team works together. A mediocre PvP player with a great team will have a decided advantage over a great PvP player with a poor team that never communicates or cross-heals. So, within the context of PvP, it is inappropriate to evaluate either faction based on either individual ships/persons. Perhaps this perspective is appropriate in PvE settings, though even here there are problems.

The same problem plagues many of the Vesta-OP posts. Within a PvP perspective, I don't think the appropriate question is, "How does this ship stand on its own?," but rather, what kind of synergy can the Vesta create in conjunction with other ships. The first question--how does it stand on its own--is important but only to a point. Asking about a ship's ability to create momentum in a team setting, however, is a much more nuanced, sophisticated, and difficult way of evaluating balance, but it is one that we too often overlook in the forums. For my part, I am more terrified of a well-coordinated Fed team, flying non-C-Store ships than i am of 5 captain Kirks (i.e., lone wolf players) in fleet ships, Vestas, etc. with the best equipment, traits and whatever.

In short, I for one do not think that the KDF is overpowered, either in terms of equipment or ships. If people are having difficulties with survivability or lack of ability to be effective in combat, the following questions need to be asked:

1) Is my build optimal (skill tree, boff layout, etc.). Equipment is in fact not the most important thing here, though it does have its place. Ask someone in your fleet or in the forums to give you feedback. There is no shame in this. we are all students.

2) If I am getting demolished, how much teamwork is my team using? If the answer is 0, then you should not be surprised if you are being blasted. If there is no teamwork, then this is an opportunity for you to step up in leadership, call targets, call heals, and coordinate your attack.

@gradstudent1
PvP Boot Camp Project Leader Emeritus

Last edited by gradstudent1; 11-10-2012 at 09:52 PM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 742
# 93
11-11-2012, 08:48 AM
Hey.. Roach had something I said quoted in his sig last year that was there a few weeks.. If Roach quotes you in his sig... ITS AN HONOR YA SILLY NID!

Sheesh, some people..

KDF ships are indeed slightly superior up to tier 4.. in some case remarkably so. Tier 3 PvP fed worse case scenario 5v5 0r 10v10 is all of the KDF side in K'ting'a's (seen it happen once or twice always ugly brutal and very very very short fight..

Of special note.. BEFORE claiming KDF ships are OP.. go fly some FvK balanced teams in ships with thier STOCK weapons loadout. You may discover that KDF ships are not quite as op as you think. Especially at tier 5 and tier 5 plus..

KDF Cloak is OP! oh hohoho hehehe ahh *snort* yea right.. do you have any clue how hard it is to STAY claoked? DO you have any idea how many way there are to bust a cloak.. Many KDF rarely use cloak any more other then to close on a target and choose thier direction of attack... if you are finding yourself susceptable to KDF ships coming out of cloak then perhapes you need to learn how to select targets just a shade faster. Let me give you a little hint USE YOUR EARS.. Cloaking has two distinct sound one to cloak one to uncloak.. If you see a KDF ship start to cloak or uncloak SHOT THEM YA IDJIT! They got no shields! Yes, most importantly cloaked ship do NOT have shields up.. this make then terribly vulnerable to FED sci aoe abilities.. I cannot begine to tell you how many times photonic shackwave has voided cloak on one of my ships leaving me not only vulnerable to incoming fore BZUT UNABLE TO RETURN FIRE! cloaks got you down.. you need to go pick up a certain ship in the C-store. ya know, the one with that homing photon torpedo..BOP's worst nightmare..

second important note. in PvP especially against experienced players expect them to have a load out on thier ship of weapons and console along with selected bridge officer powers out of your worst nightmare.. because odds are.. they do. most experienced PvP'rs keep 2 full sets of weps and ship equipment, sometimes even 3..One for general PvE, one for STF's, and one for PvP. The general PvE set will be over all the weakest. Its not going to be optimized to dish out the damage and slot in with BO and captains powers best against other players.

Now, if you as a fed truely want to be OP.. then yank out your plastic and pop some money out for some zen for the vesta sir.. THAT ship is OP..all the way live OP, and the KDF does not really honestly have a ship that can match it. If you set it up right it will stay OP. If you want to do the Tac captain in a crusier sized hall thats a carrier, with a sci ships manuverability etc etc, and an escorts firepower.. baby.. that ships for you..

Learn the ships, learn the math, learn the consoles weapons, and powers. and don't come into the KDF forums whining KDF ships are OP.. it aint the ships... its the players...

If a KDF player kicked you but it wasn't the ship that was better then you, it was the player that was better then you. I can even prove it to you.. I'm utter crap at PvP in STO even in a good ship with a finely tuned weapons and system suite and the perfect bridge officer power and the perfect duty officers slotted in.. wanna know why? I'm a crappy typist that why and I hit the wrong keys, and i don't know the key board short cuts.. Sure I can whip the crap out of even elite STF's on a team thats short. Thats because the AI ships Always Do The Same Thing. Always React the Same Way, Always Behave In A Predictable Manner. I've yanked out top DPS honors in STF's with a KDF SCI captain flying a battle cruiser. But then.. I know the right weapons to pick for use against the Borg, and I have learned the right console mix and BO's to slot in. I'll out shoot the escorts, and out tank the fed cruisers, while using my measly. I can do that because i know my ship and i know the AI ships. in PvP i only know my ship and I'm slow on the controls.. so i die. a lot! (which by the way is why I don't do a great deal of PvP...because at this point in the game the fed players who regularly show up for PvP are way better then I am!

But some how I gotta feeling that as poor as I am at PvP, there is a certain fed I can beat... mostly because he belives I can.. cuz my ship is ya know.. OP.

You think Klingons are nasty.. wait untill an Orion woman has you by Jphnies!
Release 8.5 "STO The Next Generation"

Let the happy old bug stomping commence, along with refinement toward enhancing each factions play experience!
Ensign
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 18
# 94
11-13-2012, 07:18 AM
I love my KDF and to some degree I agree with the OP. Klingon ships are superior to feds but IMO only because the pilot.

I have sat and watched someone flying the exact same ship that I use get slaughtered by the same person I pop in 2 shots. Why? Is it cause I am OP? Maybe but in all reality I understand what buffs work best in what order to create a damage debuff on them and increases my damage to them.

For instance I had just reached level 50 and a KDF (yes KDF is not fed) offered me a 1v1 challenge. I took this challenge knowing I still had green, blue, and white mk viii's to his mk xii purple's.

5 kills later he was perplexed how a lower tier ship could slaughter him with such low weapons. Was it I was using any kind of broken mechanics? Was it I was using the broken item of the week? Nope. It came down to simple knowledge of the game.

Yes Feds flying around don't understand what to look for when they are going to attack. They don't think of the counters to each ship's attack and normally blow all there cooldowns in 2 seconds flat then are easy prey.

Feds don't seam to realize that different shields do different things other than what Joey uses because he is in fleet XXX.

Feds say setting up keybinds are a waste and make no difference then explode and claim you are cheating or hacking because you slaughtered them.

Seriously get your head out of your rear and LEARN the game. Having Joey tell you to use X,Y, and Z will NEVER make you a better player. Learn WHY X, Y, and Z was suggested and what counters each of them. Then you will have a clue how to counter the counter. Watch what your opponent uses and understand how to counter it.

Power levels are not there for you to just look at. Use them!

I have also been flying a bop since release of the game so I understand what makes it tick better than many but by all means not all. Look, Listen, and don't panic but by God have at least Tact team on standby.

Ultimately a cruiser wears you down over time but a bop is burst damage. Quick fast in and out due to lack of hull. Fly a KDF ship and you will see that cloak is NOT a save your rear button and can kill you as fast as saving you if you use it incorrectly and has LOTS and LOTS of counters.

Seriously don't cry others are OP.

NOW in all honesty with that Leach needs a NERF! TBR3 needs a NERF! Doffs need a NERF! Some shields need a NERF! And especially the broken beams (many of you know the combination) needs a NERF!

But since sooo many things are broken in this game I say NERF needs NERFED too!
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 865
# 95
11-13-2012, 07:52 AM
The biggest advantage the KDF have in comparison to the feds are:-
Better turnrate - This essentially makes their cruisers far far better tanks.

Cloaking device - This gives the KDF the advantage in when it comes to a first strike or surprise attack. In the case of battle cloak, it's really not all that difficult to cloak in the middle of combat as long as you have a brain.

Cruisers with the ability to equip cannons - Meaning they can actually have worthwhile DPS and have the turnrate to make use of it.

Power drains (plasmonic leech and power siphons) - Honestly this is probably the biggest issue with them at the moment.

B'rels - A while ago they weren't much of a problem, even slightly useless unless against a total noob... Then cryptic made tric mines dispersable and gave the KDF AMS, which benefited their battle cloaks and hit and run style far better then then any benefit it gave feds.

Garumba - Basically a fleet escort with a spinal lance.

Once way WAY back in season 1, these advantages were ever so *slightly* balanced out by the fact Klingons had slightly less hull and shields then their Federation comparatives. Then Cryptic changed the skill table some time around season 1.2 and due to an oversight KDF ships now generally have the same hull and shields.

As someone who has 3 KDF toons, I am more then well aware how easy us KDF players have it.


Of course now the Feds are getting the Vesta... Even with the Danube nerf (which I suspect doesn't nerf them anywhere as much as they need to be) I suspect this ship will be monstrously overpowered. Being someone who likes to fight fair (no P2W consoles or SNB doffs), I can't see me buying it.

Oh one last advantage KDF players have over Feds in FvK:-
Calibre of player - The majority of good fed players know full well how unbalanced KDF players are, so stick to the FvF queues. Those that do queue for FvK tend to be new players who don't even know about tactical team, try to be DPS dealers in cruisers (even star cruisers) and think jam sensors make them immune.
Previously Alendiak
Daizen - Lvl 50 Engineer - Fleet Avenger
Selia - Lvl 50 Tactical - Fleet Avenger
Toval - Lvl 50 Tactical - Fleet Mogai

Last edited by orondis; 11-13-2012 at 08:02 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 298
# 96
11-13-2012, 07:59 AM
Srry brah, Klingons are not OP, and your 3 lvl 12s dont count. These threads are always either trololo or lololo, either way they are pointless..worthless, and just plain wrong. If the KDF gets nerfed anymore, or there goodies spread out any more they wont even be worth playing..

Oh wait, whats that? S-7 is giving the feds even more KDF stuff? Oh nvm.. pretty soon you will all have your wish and the OP unfair Klingons will be just like and exactly identical to the FED side and visa versa. Oh well... back to my crocheting.



Yeah, that's right.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,764
# 97
11-13-2012, 08:18 AM
Quote:
Power drains (plasmonic leech and power siphons) - Honestly this is probably the biggest issue with them at the moment.
The leech has been nerfed to not stack drain on a target from more than one user and if one is skilled in Insulators you can lower any drain from PL to near nothing.

Siphon Drones are also due for a nerf, though I know not how much it will help.


Danubes are in fact getting a buff in Hull for the changes being brought to its TB. They now have as much hull as many of the much larger Cruisers in STO.
Richard Hamilton (1975-2014)
goodbye good friend. We will see you in the DMZ in the sky oneday, save a shot for us.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 298
# 98
11-13-2012, 08:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post
The leech has been nerfed to not stack drain on a target from more than one user and if one is skilled in Insulators you can lower any drain from PL to near nothing.

Siphon Drones are also due for a nerf, though I know not how much it will help.


Danubes are in fact getting a buff in Hull for the changes being brought to its TB. They now have as much hull as many of the much larger Cruisers in STO.
We are getting cross faction shields.. ie KDF gets MACO... FED gets KHG... so it stems to reason that the leech will either be nerfed AGAIN, or simply shared with feds ... I mean can you imagine a Klingon with leech AND MACO? A feds pol. procs would be worthless if the KDF was running and specced into insulators.



Yeah, that's right.
Ensign
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 18
# 99
11-15-2012, 07:36 AM
With all due respect even if both sides had the same dps, the same hull, and the same shields it would make little difference if any at all.

Fed's do NOT work together and seam to think there cruisers should be able to tank multiple people but only copy what others post. They have no clue what the skill tree is for and exactly how it helps. They have no interest in keybinds or learning how the game works. All they care about is SPACEBAR SPAM!

As a KDF I hunt feds. Yes I actually track them in Ker'rat. I watch what buffs they have and use then tactically force them to use certain buffs so that they become harmless to me then BAM.

In other words I use STRATEGY! For some reason people seam to forget that there is more to a game than uncloak and shoot. Dropping mines does take skill especially tri mines due to them easily being seen when dropped and easily targeted. As a KDF who is cloaked the last thing you want to see is a tri mine coming at you cause it's normally fatal. So I do employ anti mine abilities and since feds refuse to do so they become an easy target not because mines kill them but because they care nothing about anything but the ship's hull in front of them IE spam spacebar to shoot unshielded B'rel's hull then BAM. I say POP then repeat.

People don't want to learn they want EZ and ONLY EZ! They complain people spend money on the game and claim those items are p2w. Just because you have something you paid for does NOT mean you instantly understand how to use it or how to win I think that's funny as hell when cheap crybabies complain.

Over Powered? Not in the first. My defiant easily kills Klinks. Normally in 1 shot maybe 2 if it misses. It's all about the hunt. Strategy and watching your opponent. Know what to do to defeat their buffs then you got it.

LOOK, LISTEN, AND LEARN! are the keys to pvp.
Ensign
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 18
# 100
11-15-2012, 08:49 AM
In a team based environment nothing the KDF has can be deemed as OP, everything has counters, even the dreaded siphon carrier builds. (Doesnt take much to spam the offending carriers name in vent or team chat - Usually Said carrier will pop within minutes of focus fire)

"But What about Premade Siphon Drone Spam Builds??" I hear you bitches shriek.

When was the last time you were in a PVP and saw 5 carriers running drone builds?... seriously. Seems to me this is a story of make believe, fabricated by scheming anal devestated Feds who happened to run into a couple drain builds in kerrat or Arena and attempt to sway the rest of the community into thinking KDF players are jamming the Queues with premade drain carrier teams... this is BOLLOCKS.

***** made players... let me explain something, this is a game that requires co-operation in order to win. You arent going to roflstomp an engineer in an oddy or recluse singlehandedly, You need an organised effort to send them to respawn. This being said, with good organisation, target calling etc NO team is OP.
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