Career Officer
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 45
# 21
11-13-2012, 08:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stoleviathan99 View Post
They're increasing the net amount of dilithium you can get per character in a couple of hours and clearly marking where to get it in S7.

The only way you lose out is if you used alts to acquire dilithium.

But I think the net goal if actually people refining more dilithium per day and that the shifts are actually to try to get people to do Fleet Actions over other types of content rather than actually dilithium starving people.

The long-run direction the dilithium economy hinges in S7 depends on three things (everything else is fairly short-run):

1) Do heavy economic participants lose out by not having frontloaded dilithium on lots of alts?

2) Do players bother with Foundry with a mission length requirement and pursue Fleet Actions? Do they bother with ESTFs?

3) Is having purple DOffs worth paying an upgrinding fee?

The first is an economic referendum on the value of economic changes from a system that makes alts advantagous to one that eliminates most of the economic advantage for alts.

The second and third are a question of whether high quality DOffs, lengthy Foundry missions, ESTFs, and Fleet Actions are "worth it." The net result could be players rejecting all four.
1. With the change to the Foundry my alts will likely no longer be used.

2. The change to STF's is enough to stop me from bothering with them. I did them with the rest of my fleet as fleet events primarily, but secondly did them for the dilithium. If the dilithium reward is gone, then I will stop doing STFs.

3. I will NOT be paying the upgrinding fee. The doff system was one of my favorite parts of the game. I am not happy about this new dilithium sink. With Star Bases requiring hundreds of thousands of dilithium to complete projects that was a sufficient enough sink for me. I will not be putting my dilithium any where I didn't put it before this new season.

This is one player that will likely reject all four.

If I do not find a new way to access dilithium that isn't hours of grinding, then this game will have stopped being fun for me, and I will find a new place to play.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 688
# 22
11-13-2012, 08:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stoleviathan99 View Post
They're increasing the net amount of dilithium you can get per character in a couple of hours and clearly marking where to get it in S7.
Nowhere in the patchnotes does it say that. There's more sources of dilithium, yes, but the rate at which you gain from those sources is lower than before, and there's no mention of a refining cap increase, so I'm unsure what you think you're saying. When you're talking about a timebased currency, and that term's their own invention, having to spend more time to get the same amount of currency constitutes a nerf, no matter how often you do the big-eyed-lip-quiver routine and stutter "But there's other ways to get it now!".

Quote:
Originally Posted by stoleviathan
The long-run direction the dilithium economy hinges in S7 depends on three things (everything else is fairly short-run):

1) Do heavy economic participants lose out by not having frontloaded dilithium on lots of alts?

2) Do players bother with Foundry with a mission length requirement and pursue Fleet Actions? Do they bother with ESTFs?

3) Is having purple DOffs worth paying an upgrinding fee?
A bit early, maybe, but consider it a prediction, cause I'd be amazed if the outcome were any different:

1) Yes. Anyone who had and continues to have a vested interested in collecting a great deal of dilithium is going to take a loss if they *gasp* take a loss. It might not make a big dent for the ones who convert it to Zen, as with scarcer dilithium the exchange rate for Zen is likely to drop a long way toward normalizing their Zen income, but those who need the dilithium and only the dilithium, either cause they're in a big rush to gear out characters or they're building a small fleet/solo fleet starbase, are going to feel the strain.

Mind you, if you're just talking about the clickies... Their removal's excusable, understandable. It's not just the clickies though. It's not just the clickies and B'Tran. It's everything. I'll be interested to see if the PvP and PvE dailies still award 1440, or they'll have been nerfed too, or not longer exist at all.

2) No or Not Enough With Issues. I don't think the mystery box is going to be of much interest to people who weren't inclined to play the spotlights already anyway, if the contents are as projected. There'll be a very small increase there. Same for the Fleet Actions. I always rather liked the (space) fleet actions, so I'm getting a little extra incentive to want to do them, but people who don't like them probably aren't going to be doing them that much more often. Though the difference there will be bigger, cause a little bit of garanteed dilithium beats what's in the mystery box every day. Problem there, though... garanteed dilithium. Idlers. And a lot of them. It's a lot safer to idle in a relatively anonymous environment like a fleet action or a warzone (see these a lot) than it is in a 5-man grouped instance, so we may need a lower tier of rewards for those, that affords no dilithium. Of course, that means, once the idlers catch on, and stay away, some unlucky science officers in science vessels who came in last will feel they got screwed.

3) No. Even if dilithium had been made easier to get, it wouldn't be. Not with them being as they are. If they'd just adjust the upgrinder to let you pick the exact profession, or at the very least the department of the better-quality duty officer that's supposed to come from this, 5000 dilithium might've been worth a purple. You'd still have less choice and control than than you would picking up a 12,000 dilithium doff from Ferra, but at least you'd know you're not getting a bartender or refugee. As is, that slot machine's too expensive for me and, if what I hear ingame is any indication, almost everyone else.
Reave

Last edited by hrisvalar; 11-13-2012 at 08:43 AM.
Ensign
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 8
# 23
11-13-2012, 08:53 AM
Well i dont believe its manipulated , but at the same time it can be ...

The real problem is that u dont see the entire sell and buy orders , PWE shows u only what the want you to see .

I have tried to help my friend get some zen so i told him to put 100 zen for sale at 500 dilitium per zen , when i went to the exchange i could not find the listing .
On the same note u can see the buy orders that are already there .

I conclusion the only reaso they would want that is to have room to artificially intervene , i played other PWE games and they have full trasnparecy , you can even make a low buy order and give the transaction number to a friend and he can sell u zen to fill your order specificaly .
Transparency will make it better for this game , and players will find ways to help each-other .
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,011
# 24
11-13-2012, 08:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hrisvalar View Post
Nowhere in the patchnotes does it say that. There's more sources of dilithium, yes, but the rate at which you gain from those sources is lower than before, and there's no mention of a refining cap increase, so I'm unsure what you think you're saying. When you're talking about a timebased currency, and that term's their own invention, having to spend more time to get the same amount of currency constitutes a nerf, no matter how often you do the big-eyed-lip-quiver routine and stutter "But there's other ways to get it now!".
You can do a Fleet Action in ten minutes and get 900+ dilithium. Awards are now for participation in three participation tiers.


Quote:
A bit early, maybe, but consider it a prediction, cause I'd be amazed if the outcome were any different:

1) Yes. Anyone who had and continues to have a vested interested in collecting a great deal of dilithium is going to take a loss if they *gasp* take a loss. It might not make a big dent for the ones who convert it to Zen, as with scarcer dilithium the exchange rate for Zen is likely to drop a long way toward normalizing their Zen income, but those who need the dilithium and only the dilithium, either cause they're in a big rush to gear out characters or they're building a small fleet/solo fleet starbase, are going to feel the strain.
People who had one alt will have increased opportunity with Fleet Actions. However, less frontloading and costs associated with getting DOffs (think of how many free DOffs alts allowed before there was a cost) discourages having farming alts, which devalues alts. If I play Fleet Actions, I'll be getting the same amount of dilithium per day as I got before but it discourages using alts to maximize it.

Quote:
2) No or Not Enough With Issues. I don't think the mystery box is going to be of much interest to people who weren't inclined to play the spotlights already anyway, if the contents are as projected. There'll be a very small increase there. Same for the Fleet Actions. I always rather liked the (space) fleet actions, so I'm getting a little extra incentive to want to do them, but people who don't like them probably aren't going to be doing them that much more often. Though the difference there will be bigger, cause a little bit of garanteed dilithium beats what's in the mystery box every day. Problem there, though... garanteed dilithium. Idlers. And a lot of them. It's a lot safer to idle in a relatively anonymous environment like a fleet action or a warzone (see these a lot) than it is in a 5-man grouped instance, so we may need a lower tier of rewards for those, that affords no dilithium. Of course, that means, once the idlers catch on, and stay away, some unlucky science officers in science vessels who came in last will feel they got screwed.

3) No. Even if dilithium had been made easier to get, it wouldn't be. Not with them being as they are. If they'd just adjust the upgrinder to let you pick the exact profession, or at the very least the department of the better-quality duty officer that's supposed to come from this, 5000 dilithium might've been worth a purple. You'd still have less choice and control than than you would picking up a 12,000 dilithium doff from Ferra, but at least you'd know you're not getting a bartender or refugee. As is, that slot machine's too expensive for me and, if what I hear ingame is any indication, almost everyone else.
And there's the issue: Choice. Cryptic is making economic referendums on old, paid-for content by trying to incentivize the things THEY want us to be doing. And putting a referendum on specific content makes the health of the game hinge on that content.
Career Officer
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 145
# 25
11-13-2012, 09:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by draugadan View Post
1. With the change to the Foundry my alts will likely no longer be used.

2. The change to STF's is enough to stop me from bothering with them. I did them with the rest of my fleet as fleet events primarily, but secondly did them for the dilithium. If the dilithium reward is gone, then I will stop doing STFs.

3. I will NOT be paying the upgrinding fee. The doff system was one of my favorite parts of the game. I am not happy about this new dilithium sink. With Star Bases requiring hundreds of thousands of dilithium to complete projects that was a sufficient enough sink for me. I will not be putting my dilithium any where I didn't put it before this new season.

This is one player that will likely reject all four.

If I do not find a new way to access dilithium that isn't hours of grinding, then this game will have stopped being fun for me, and I will find a new place to play.
Really?

you took the time to make Alts, and the only thing you did on them was the console click daily...what a damn waste. While the free dil was nice it is easly made up with stacking resolve doff missions
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 776
# 26
11-13-2012, 09:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hrisvalar View Post
Problem there, though... garanteed dilithium. Idlers. And a lot of them. It's a lot safer to idle in a relatively anonymous environment like a fleet action or a warzone (see these a lot) than it is in a 5-man grouped instance, so we may need a lower tier of rewards for those, that affords no dilithium. Of course, that means, once the idlers catch on, and stay away, some unlucky science officers in science vessels who came in last will feel they got screwed.
No we dont. Idlers are not a problem in fleet actions. Particularly on the space ones you don't necessarily need any help if your ship is good, and the reward structure is such that they're in fact competitive. I know I would've preferred to run some of them solo (or with a bunch of idlers) when going for the 1st place accolades. 1st place is going to give two purple items in S7...more idlers, less competition. And better they idle in fleet actions than STFs where every player is actually needed.
Ensign
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 5
# 27
11-13-2012, 10:03 AM
No, I think you fail to realize how the exchange works. The 159 is the highest dil4zen exchange rate, so when all the zens being sold for 159 dil is gone, then the 158 exchange rate would take place. No one is stupid enough to exchange 1 zen for 158 when there are plenty of offers for 159. All other offers under the highest dil/zen buy rates are offers.

If you go to the sell screen, you'll notice all the counter offers, which works in the same manner except reverse direction. The system is not rigged, so far as I can tell. It's an exchange market, there is not profit as it is a zero sum exchange, meaning Cryptic doesn't even take commission.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 145
# 28
11-13-2012, 08:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rehpic View Post
Sorry, but this doesn't make any sense to me. If you offer to sell 1 zen at price X, you will never get less than X dilithium. The only way you will lose one Dilithium is if you offer to sell your zen for one dilithium less than you bought it for. Of course you might have to wait until someone enters a buy offer at the same price as your sell offer.
If you buy a zen, it will (at that particular time; I don't know what it is now) cost you 159 dil, because that is the best buy price. If you were to go and sell that same zen, you would sell it at 158, since that was the best sell price. You would lose (and when I experimented last night, it happened to me) 1 dil in the process. Even when I wanted to sell that one zen back for 159, to make back what I had spent on it, I couldn't, since that was above the best price listed.
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