Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 298
# 51
11-13-2012, 08:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aetam1 View Post
That is true. People are so fixed on consoles that they tend to ignore other stuff. Can you afford purple doffs, or do you have only blue ones? Do you have [acc]x3 weapons? Do you have MK XI or MK XII stuff? The difference between blue MK XI dmg consoles and purple MK XII is about 4% I think. With 4 tac consoles that would be about 16% which is about half a console.
Also there are the ships. Even a simple defiant is either a vet reward or you have to buy it from the shop. So where does p2w start? If you say you do not use it, does that mean you run only free ships and no item that costs more than 10m ec since it is the free acc credit limit?



That is not entirely true. Yes everyone wants to win but honestly, if I have a truly amazing game of two equal teams I don't care that much. Yes a victory is what makes such a match perfect but loosing won't bruise my ego. In a really good match even loosing can be fun, especially if you have a good relation with your opponents.
Also I might add I have my own sense of honor or whatever you like to call it. There are some things I won't use, like a drain carrier for example. I do not use everything I own, I consider carefully what I use in pvp. Like I use a leech because I have one, it's awesome and I see no reason not to. If they break it again and it stacks I will unequip it and the moment they fix it use it again.
I will not hide what i use, some of it is p2w stuff. But I do care up to a certain point about my enemies. I usually go with something like "I only use what I would not mind others using against me".
Although I wont delve into argument, I must say I have witnessed that latter paragraph of mine which you responded to, many times. I will however give a nod to your " especially if you have good relations with your opponents." comment that usually does factor in. If you are friends with your opponents then YES, the fun and the game are usually all that matters.

I must agree with you there. I was referring to either ppl who dont like to lose specifically, rivals, or just simply ppl you dont know, with my statement. I should have been more concise and less general with my words.



Yeah, that's right.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 568
# 52
11-13-2012, 09:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pvehero View Post
Fair?

If the best team wins, it's fair... with a few exceptions:

1. Pay2Win. If the cost of very powerful items exceed what the general player can afford, the game will become pay2win, and not fair.
Definitely after S7 is deployed. Cryptic taking away dilithium maps, adding scarce new ones mostly for fleet actions, not upping the 8K daily cap, and reducing current dil rewards on the maps they didn't remove it from. This is "making" you buy Zen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pvehero View Post
- EC P2W. Items that can be bought in the EC exchange at extreme prices. (=Bug ship, SNB doffs, etc.)
- Time P2W. "You may earn this throug gameplay" is not a valid excuse if the time it takes is too long. Time is money, and spending a lot of time in game equals spending a lot of money. Applies to anything costing Dili or EC.
So they force you to "pay quickly". They make it take so long to achieve anything in the game that you simply buckle down and purchase the needed resources with real money. They have also increased the rate of releasing Cstore/lockbox items so even if you intend to get everything for "free" in the game without using real life money, your wish list length is increasing faster than you can remove the items.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pvehero View Post
- Zen P2W. Items that cost a lot to buy in the Z-store. (= lockbox ships, etc.).
- Hardware P2W. If the game rewards having exceptionally good harware, or if you have shorter response time by living closer to the server etc. (=: Solar Wind map, etc.)

Ofc, this is all graded... you should be expected to spend a certain amount of money and time in game, but somewhere the line of what can reasonably be expected is crossed.

2. If the best team is gimping itself. And yes, there are valid reasons for doing this. If you are certain that a part of the game is ruining the gameplay and/or fun, you can abstain from using it. This helps make the game better, but may result in unfair matches. (examples are siphon drones and broken TBR).

3. Cheats or hax. Need I say more?

In general, if one team feels the cost of some advantages is too high, and if this feeling is justified, the game will be unfair. The cost may be in money, time or gameplay/fun. How much of each of these are you willing to sacrifice to be competitive?

In a fair game, that is not broken, the majority of dedicated pvp players will afford to be competitive, they will have sufficient time to be competittive, and they will be able to use all available options without ruining their own fun, or the fun of a equally skilled team.

Where in this does STO fail? A matter of opinion...
Always going to be a matter of opinion, but if you are stick to moral/ethical explanations according to societal standards, then it is many failures in everything you have mentioned.
Member since January 2010. I AM NOT A PWE FAN!!!!
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,757
# 53
11-13-2012, 09:56 AM
Fairness in PvP was sold out from under the playerbase a long time ago.

Now you must Pay to Compete unless you have skill.
90% of the STO playerbase does not have skill.
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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 165
# 54
11-13-2012, 10:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tfomega View Post
Always going to be a matter of opinion, but if you are stick to moral/ethical explanations according to societal standards, then it is many failures in everything you have mentioned.
Nope, not failuers in my statement. Failures in STO, maybe. Inconsistencies in where players draw the line, definately, but my statement is true. What I said can be shortened to two sentences:

- If the game contains elements that ruin gameplay when used, it can not be a fair game.
- If the cost of getting the equipment needed to be competitive is too high, it can not be a fair game.

Now where the lines are drawn, I'll not take upon myself to judge. How disturbing to gameplay is too disturbing? What cost is too high? (money/time) I'm not saying. I'm just laying out the formula.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 568
# 55
11-13-2012, 03:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pvehero View Post
Nope, not failuers in my statement. Failures in STO, maybe. Inconsistencies in where players draw the line, definately, but my statement is true. What I said can be shortened to two sentences:

- If the game contains elements that ruin gameplay when used, it can not be a fair game.
- If the cost of getting the equipment needed to be competitive is too high, it can not be a fair game.

Now where the lines are drawn, I'll not take upon myself to judge. How disturbing to gameplay is too disturbing? What cost is too high? (money/time) I'm not saying. I'm just laying out the formula.
Yes, I was agreeing with you.. "where in all that does STO fail"... In addition to your summary, I was also adding moral/ethical concerns.... i.e. if cryptic has become a powercreep that is gouging the player base for money and their methods (some of them very questionable) in doing so.
Member since January 2010. I AM NOT A PWE FAN!!!!
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 11,963
# 56
11-13-2012, 03:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post
90% of the STO playerbase does not have skill.
I'd say it's a mix of skill and knowledge. There's a lot of players that are missing many of the basics. I reroll way too often - so I tend to see things that I find mind boggling on the PvE queue side. I get players not knowing things in the low levels - I write it off as them being new to the game. When you see that same stuff at the 44+ range...you hope they never try to PvP - but that if they do, they're on the other team.
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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 165
# 57
11-13-2012, 05:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tfomega View Post
Yes, I was agreeing with you.. "where in all that does STO fail"... In addition to your summary, I was also adding moral/ethical concerns.... i.e. if cryptic has become a powercreep that is gouging the player base for money and their methods (some of them very questionable) in doing so.
Ah, I misread you.

Anyhow, yes, I also feel Cryptic has crossed a few lines. Both in the demand of time/money spent (the two are virtually the same in STO), and the presence of single mechanics that upset the synergy and balance enough to ruin fun when used. That said, (mostly from what I hear) STO is by no means the worst game on the market when it comes to this...

I am worried tho, at the increasing need to spend time/money to be competitive. If it was only time, it wouldn't be so bad, as most people would be held back. The concept of buying time with money allows many players to skip ahead, and this means those who have better access to time than money will be spending all that grind-time at a disadvantage. And that seriously reduces the fun.
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