Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 421
# 221
11-14-2012, 08:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by walshicus View Post
... Did we not just have several weeks of testing on Tribble to provide feedback for just this sort of change? Were we not told that STFs would still grant ~950 dilithium a run?

How can you expect us to trust you, and as a result *want* to work with you to support this game, if you're as deceptive here as you have been? Frankly Cryptic suck on this one.
QFT...and I'm 10 pages behind the current discussion.

You can't ask people for feedback and then ignore it.

You know what happens?

You won't get any.

Then when people quit playing and you try to ask "why?", you won't like the answer.
Career Officer
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 953
# 222
11-14-2012, 08:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stoleviathan99 View Post
I'd read the Giffiths/Cole paper before. And it's focused on friendships in MMOs, which is more of a function of chat than of gameplay. I maintain that in terms of gameplay, there is more interest in ambient and indirect interaction than in coordinated and directly competitive interaction. And that's kindof an obvious principle because the latter two are more resource taxing and largely irrelevant to socialization.

Which has zilch to do with PvP or coordinated play. Additionally, when people DO coordinated play with friends, yes, it's theoretically less socially taxing. But that doesn't mean they want to team with or fight people they are NOT friends with. 70% HAVING friends is not the same as 70% BEING friends. So you've got 5-10 friends that you like playing with. What does that say about anything? The more striking number is that 30% have none.
If we are talking personal experience as you seem to be then let me tell you how my personal experience and those I have spoken to in-game is totally out of whack with your thinking.

When I joined STO I didn't know anyone in game. I came here for Star Trek. I didn't really make any friends in the game UNTIL I started playing co-operative play. In fact I have made all my friends on STO through playing STF's. STF's brought people together for a focused effort in co-ordinated team play, through it I found out who was goo dat doing missions and began enjoying spending time with those people and becoming friends with them.

Today when I logged on the STF's channels were dead.

I think you need to re-evaluate your own qualitative experience in the light of others, because I am afraid you are wrong.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 744
# 223
11-14-2012, 08:56 AM
Here's something interesting: it should take four (4) hours to get 8000 Dilithium, according to this blog. Even at paying only 25 Dilithium per Z point, that gives you 320 Zen. So for four hours of work, you get $3.20 (and per the quotes below, doing things solely for dilithium and not for the fun of playing, is not a game, it is work). That's pretty far below minimum wage. Just saying.

If the devs want us to spend more time in the game, give us more stuff to do, don't artificially time gate gear.


Have to agree with the quotes below.


Quote:
Originally Posted by maarkean View Post
This is ridiculous.



WTF? I play this game versus specifically because it DOESN'T require hours of time investment. I like that about this game. And so does everyone I know who plays. We all have kids and jobs and don't have the time to invest. Making us work harder for things isn't going to make us play more, its going to drive us away from the game.

I really, really hate that mentality of game designers. It's a GAME, not a job.

What really boggles the mind is this:


Most players DON'T convert very much dilithium. So you're going to make it HARDER to get it? Why? How does that make any sense what so ever?

I hate conspiracy theories but those that claim this is just a scam to get us to buy Dilithium with Zen don't sound so crazy now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by superherofan View Post
I'm not even going to try to make sense of any of this nonsense. It's all lies and bull****, because they just want us to buy dilithium with zen. Everything else is just blah blah blah.
Join Date: July 29 2008
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 969
# 224
11-14-2012, 08:57 AM
Quote:
Pre-Season 7 Dilithium Concerns

As we approached Season 7, we spent a lot of time reviewing the Dilithium economy and evaluating changes that needed to be made based on the following concerns:

Concern 1 - Active level 50 players are refining far less Dilithium than we expect them to. Prior to Season 7, the average amount of Dilithium refined by an active level 50 player was 3100 per session or 13,250 per week. That is far less than the cap of 8000 per day when you consider that most level 50 players play multiple days per week and slightly more than the average hours per session.

Concern 2 - Several missions were rewarding far more Dilithium than they should have. We have a guideline for how much Dilithium should be earned based on effort and time spent, and there were several missions that were clearly outside of our guidelines and players were using these missions to earn more Dilithium than we intended.

Concern 3 - New gear being created was not in line with other pricing
With all the new gear in the game, gear pricing needed a balance pass to ensure that the amount of Dilithium required for similar gear was consistent across the game.
So, you solved these issues by lowering dilithium availability and upping the cost of items?

Did it ever occur to you guys that people slowed their dilithium refining because STO is too much of a grind?

Did it ever occur to you guys that people slowed their dilithium refining because you guys turned STO into manual labor?

Did it ever occur to you guys that people slowed their dilithium refining because there is no overall substance to the endgame?

Did it ever occur to you guys that people slowed their dilithium refining because you guys sucked the fun out of "Star Trek" gaming?

Did it ever occur to you guys that your decisions are the problem?

Last edited by linyive; 11-14-2012 at 09:36 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,193
# 225
11-14-2012, 09:00 AM
And yes, I know we're in an era of big data.

I don't need a link to Nate Silvers' blog to know that.

My point is that Cryptic's data is going to be the best data and big data requires original research to the specific data at hand (heck, folks who argued for using 2004 data in the 2012 U.S. presidential election all got it wrong) and Nate Silvers-style big data requires much of it from many sources with a track record you can use to track the reliability and bias of data sources.

It's not productive as a player on the forums to argue DATA. The only leg we have to stand on as players is a mix of broad qualitative generalities and a priori philosophical assumptions.

We need to be looking at things in terms of qualitative analysis and narrative. Not statistics. Because we don't have the statistics to work with.

From a player vantage, more math shoehorned into our discussions about design philosophy makes our arguments less reliable.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 744
# 226
11-14-2012, 09:07 AM
The quote below about story bears repeating, especially the part where Kirkfat says: "Your team provides stupid virtual goodies and not Star Trek." That'ws why I left the game for some time - I was bored running the same stuff over and over again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kirksplat View Post
If you want to know why my lvl 50 stopped grinding dilithium... what is the point? I don't care about stupid virtual goodies. I care about Star Trek. You team provides stupid virtual goodies and not Star Trek. So, I stopped caring about your stuff and cared far more about the only place in this game that has a soul or a story.

I'm sorry if I didn't meet your MMO expectations. I don't like to mow the lawn every day as a chore. I'd rather feel immersed in the universe of Trek, when your game isn't ruining all levels of that immersion.

Like, what exactly do you want me, as a player to do in this game? You want me to rush back and forth between the same content that I played yesterday? You want me to just rinse and repeat content that uninspired to begin with? It's like you want me to circle an arcade on a daily basis with set tasks to do, which include doing things that suck and are simply not fun to do.

"Now is your time to farm anomalies.... Now is your time to play some slogfest with no story... no is your time to repair a satellite that breaks everyday..." Your dilithium is dumb. Your starbases are a reskinned doff system, and your reputation system is a repeat of that reskin.

I'm sorry. I refuse to waste my time with things that are not fun.

Screw that. None of that is fun. I'll play how I want to play, and I've officially stopped caring about how you want or expect me to play your non-content content. You stopped caring about the "meat" of your game a long time ago.
Join Date: July 29 2008
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,193
# 227
11-14-2012, 09:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thisisoverlord View Post
If we are talking personal experience as you seem to be then let me tell you how my personal experience and those I have spoken to in-game is totally out of whack with your thinking.

When I joined STO I didn't know anyone in game. I came here for Star Trek. I didn't really make any friends in the game UNTIL I started playing co-operative play. In fact I have made all my friends on STO through playing STF's. STF's brought people together for a focused effort in co-ordinated team play, through it I found out who was goo dat doing missions and began enjoying spending time with those people and becoming friends with them.

Today when I logged on the STF's channels were dead.

I think you need to re-evaluate your own qualitative experience in the light of others, because I am afraid you are wrong.
Overlord:

I don't think you and I are fundamentally disagreeing about the negative consequences of these changes. This is the death knell of STFs unless something changes.

My guess at this point is that Cryptic either needs to reverse the changes somewhat (because socialization is taxing and taxing play needs to be offset with reward) or they need to nerf STFs down to a point where no coordination is necessary.

Effectively, either reward people for taking the pains to make friends or allow fairly shallow friendships to avoid being taxed by challenging play.
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 312
# 228
11-14-2012, 09:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thisisoverlord View Post
In fact I have made all my friends on STO through playing STF's. STF's brought people together for a focused effort in co-ordinated team play, through it I found out who was goo dat doing missions and began enjoying spending time with those people and becoming friends with them.

.
That's exactly what happened to me. Started STO because of Star Trek. As a newb I found some cool guys in STF. And until yesterday we were raiding the STF's together, chatting over skype and enjoying our optional loot :-)
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 41
# 229
11-14-2012, 09:12 AM
You should have listened to the players.... all you had to do was add Dilithium to fleet actions, lower the dilithium to something like 800-1K(on elite) STFs to fix your concerns about not enough dilithium being avaliable to more of the 'normal' player base AND prevent too big of a hike in dilithium refinement for everyone else.

I ask that you please carefully review your decisions, and make changes after careful considerations to the players concern. Not the spreadsheet of data.

Now I just will have less motivation to do much in end game content, just 1 fleet action and 1 STF a day or so depending on how I feel. Rest of the time I will just do foundry missions and make foundry missions. Thank goodness for the foundry.
---
"We are the Borg. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Resistance is futile."
Sincerely,
The Cube Assimilating Your Ship Right Now
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 969
# 230
11-14-2012, 09:16 AM
Quote:
Concern 1 - Active level 50 players are refining far less Dilithium than we expect them to. Prior to Season 7, the average amount of Dilithium refined by an active level 50 player was 3100 per session or 13,250 per week. That is far less than the cap of 8000 per day when you consider that most level 50 players play multiple days per week and slightly more than the average hours per session.
Link: Replace Homer Simpson with a Cryptic developer, and change the character's words to 'grind, grind, grind...'.

Seriously, while season seven was in the development cycle, players across the forums warned about the excessive grinding. It was only a matter of time when it took a toll. What did you guys think would happen?

Plus, you guys said we were in the minority. If this new information is any indication, you guys lied to the player base about our importance.

*cracks whip* Grind, grind, grind, grind, grind, grind, grind...

Last edited by linyive; 11-14-2012 at 09:30 AM.
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