Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,458
# 241
11-14-2012, 10:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by felderburg View Post
A ha! "STFs will still reward Dilithium and there will be an Omega Rep project that converts marks into Dilithium, so we're replacing it, not taking it away." The quote is below, for those of you who want hard evidence of being lied to. Perhaps that "and" was a mistake, and he meant to say something more like "STFs will still reward Dilithium in that there will be an Omega Rep project that converts marks into Dilithium, so we're replacing it, not taking it away."
Check this out. I went back and found this:

Quote:
"I'm letting the design team handle all the dilithium balancing they are doing for S7 - so I don't have an answer for you - i trust them to keep it fair across the board" - Daniel Stahl, TTS Chat, Nov. 8, 2012

"Our lead designer - Gecko (Al) is keeping a very close eye on Dilithium distribution and adjusting accordingly." - Daniel Stahl, TTS Chat, Nov. 8, 2012

http://www.risasquadron.com/dstahl8nov2012.htm
It seems to me that Geko changed his mind or pushed a change through and Stahl basically said, "Eh. Whatever. I trust you, Al."

I like Al as a person but I think he tends to bogart design decisions away from the players, to get them playing how he wants. And I feel like Stahl just sort of shrugged at the change (with or without an internal debate: we'll never know) and decided to let him do it this time at the last minute without telling any of the testers.

So I retract my earlier point that it was a lie. It was a bloodless coupe by the systems team.
Survivor of Remus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 318
# 242
11-14-2012, 10:07 AM
You know what, I'm going to break from the rage here (which is well deserved) and provide some actual feedback on the new system.

I think I've actually figured out your logic on the new system. Unfortunately it's based on poor logic. The issue is that you've turned all of these drops into conversion currencies.

If I do an eSTF and get 50 marks (for ease of math) and 1 BNP, I still get 0 Dilithium. But lets say I'm going to change these marks and BNP into Dilithium via the rep system. 50 Marks = 500 Dil, and 5 BNP (going by live) gets you 1000 Dil. That means that my 50 marks and 1 BNP I got from the estf are worth 700 Dilithium. For an estf 700 dilithium isn't that bad.

The problem is that these are mutually exclusive currencies. Sure I could turn in my marks for Dilithium but I can only do that at tier 5, which is minimum three months from now. But of course if I save my marks to get the Dilithium, I can't use it on the rep system. If I do use it on the rep system, or buying gear from the rep system, then that Dilithium value is lost to me. It no longer becomes a currency I can use to buy stuff from the gear store or buy zen or anything. The same thing goes with the BNPs; one BNP might be worth trading in for 200 Dil, but if I do that, I can't use it for the Omega gear that requires 15? BNPs just to purchase (oh yeah, and that takes Marks too, AND Dilithium, if I understand correctly).

You're now making us choose between keeping our marks/bnps for grinding up the rep system OR buying gear OR converting to Dilithium. That is the crux of the matter, and the problem with the system. With the old system we couldn't use the tokens for as many things, but we got some Dilithium and some EDCs and some salvage/techs. The new system demands too much from the fewer drops we are getting.

You've unified the currencies (good) but you've cut the supply (bad) and increased the demand via the rep grind systems (bad). Not to mention the increased Dilithium costs for things like the doff upgrade system.

As you can see, the new system wasn't fully thought out and is based on a flawed logic.

The rage we're seeing here is deserved. Not just because you put in another bad system, though. The real sickening part is the dishonest tactics you guys used. Even if you guys only made the decision to remove the dilithium drops on Monday, you knew it and you deliberately said nothing. I know you deliberately said nothing because nothing was in the patch notes about the dilithium getting cut. If you were honest, you would have put it in the notes. (If you were really honest you would have told us ahead of time) It's quite clear the devs decided to make the change and then explain it afterwards; if they told us ahead of time, they would've been directly making a change against all the terrible feedback they knew it would get. Thus they decided to hide the fact.

How are we supposed to trust you when you act this dishonestly?
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 14
# 243
11-14-2012, 10:08 AM
Not sure if this has already been posted here but someone made a petition to attempt to change PWE/Cryptic's mind and revert the stf rewards back to their previous state, which the majority were happy with. here's the link if you wanna sign up, may as well give it a go https://www.change.org/en-GB/petitio...rops-for-stf-s
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,458
# 244
11-14-2012, 10:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by timelord79 View Post
Yes, it's true that Dilithium is now easier to get than ever with it being shifted to FAs.

But what i don't get is WHY Cryptic needs the Elite STF players to dumb down their gameplay, too?

Why is it so important, everyone plays the same narrow content? Why would it hurt them if some people do it by STFs if they are capable, too and some by fleet actions if they want easy going?

Hell, I would probably alternate between the options depending on my mood and eventual
burn out on one kind of content.

Now i will do STFs at most until I finish the rep, because I just need the passives. My captain and the Boffs that matter are decked out in Mk XI/XII gear already.

Then I will stop more or less... This will happen early next year. And I suspect many peopel think alike. It will have killed of STFs and they will be back where they were before they got butch... remastered. Hardly ever played.

Meanwhile people will be sick of the Fleet Actions because they are to boring and tedious if you do them day on end instead of an occasional nice diversion.

Maybe what they need to do is just rip out all the dilithium acquisition methods and make one big % completion wrapper daily for 8k, like the % completion missions on New Romulus and in the new sector block's patrol. (Or better, 8 identical dailies for 1k each.)

Then give everything a % completion value for the daily, based around a playtime goal of 4 hours for 8k.

Each daily just gives 1k for an estimated 30 minutes playtime.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 855
# 245
11-14-2012, 10:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stoleviathan99 View Post
Check this out. I went back and found this:

...
Thanks Leviathan for that quote (and copy of TTS chat). I made quite a few remarks in that thread, and apparently a few of them "hit too close to home", since it led to Stahl's departure from the chat.

What I find most noteworthy in that chat (and bolded for emphasis);

"We are increasing the Dil drop rate in S7 significantly - it is just not in the content you personally want to play"

Basically, Stahl admitted that they are shoe-horning us into content that THEY choose for us. Fleet Actions may be the new best source of Dilithium, but after 1-2 runs it's not very enjoyable. Especially when you are competing for the #1 spot with all the DPS monster Escorts, since Healers and Tanks are basically shafted in Fleet Actions.

After 13 pages of (heated) discussion, it is rather clear to anyone who reads it:

Daniel Stahl lied to the community, either in chat, or in the blog or a combination of circumstances, which ultimately led to the TOTAL removal of Dilithium from STFs, despite assurances that Dilithium would still be earned in STFs, just not as much as we used to get. Season 7 has thus brought us;

1. Reduced Dilithium in STFs (ZERO)
2. Time-gated acquisition of gear (Reputation system)
3. Removal of all EDC, tech drop etc, in favor of "gating" it into a crate that can't be opened for several weeks/months. By which time, most people will be fed up waiting and have long since quit.

Congratulations Mr Stahl. You have succeeded in alienating most/all of your long-time players in a single patch.
Career Officer
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 170
# 246
11-14-2012, 10:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdiederichs View Post
And how many hours of STF grinding was required to get a complete Mk XII space set under the old system? Oh yeah, that's right, under the old system there was no guarantee you would EVER get the Mk XII set even after thousands of hours of grinding. How is the new system worse again?


UNDER the old system, even thought you were never garanteed to earn the MK XII Elite gear ( MK X AND XI were purchasable via 20/40 EDC by the way ), you at least ALWAYS were coming out of a STF with SOMETHING YOU COULD USE, SELL OR EXCHANGE RIGHT AWAY.

Your time in STF was always profitable no matter how you put it.

STF was not only profitable but within STO, it was also the most team oriented, challenging and tactical content to be played. So even if it was getting old like anything, many VA players kept doing it because there was some excitement there you could not find elsewhere in the game. Mastering Elite STF was like a proving ground for many players and a source of enjoyment AND reward for many others.

- 2 EDC ( good for getting Mk X, XII, Dilithium or Doff )
- 1100 Dilithium right of the bat for completion
- A chance at Rare or Prototype salvage ( good for Mk X, XI, XII or Dilithium )
- A chance at Tech salvages ( good for INSTANT Mk X to XII Set Borg Gear )
- Random Green, Blue and Purple drops of all kind ( consoles, weapons, etc )


Now you tell me what we won in Season 7. Tell me why i should spend time in STF while all the INSTANTANEOUS rewards are gone?

Thanks, but no thanks. Not worth the trouble. I am outta here.

Last edited by tali9999; 11-14-2012 at 11:10 AM.
Survivor of Remus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 318
# 247
11-14-2012, 10:20 AM
Oh, I had one more thing to add:

Loot bags.

Why did you take the loot bags out of STFs? I know it was just a silly console and a lockbox, but it was a Treasure Chest, effectively.

People love opening Treasure Chests / Loot Bags, even if they don't get much.

Bring back the loot bags.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 744
# 248
11-14-2012, 10:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by whamhammer1 View Post
All I have to say is:

Make dilithium harder to earn for the members of the small fleet that I am in and my fleet dies, as do just about any other small fleet. Cryptic, if this is your goal, just tell me know so I can stop investing in my Fleet Starbase and I will just go sucking up to large fleets for membership.

What the heck are you thinking Cryptic?
While I understand that it will be hard and probably a terrible time for small fleets to advance in the starbase system, why will small fleets fall apart? Surely there was something holding you together before the starbase system came out?


Quote:
Originally Posted by stoleviathan99 View Post
I like Al as a person but I think he tends to bogart design decisions away from the players, to get them playing how he wants. And I feel like Stahl just sort of shrugged at the change (with or without an internal debate: we'll never know) and decided to let him do it this time at the last minute without telling any of the testers.

So I retract my earlier point that it was a lie. It was a bloodless coupe by the systems team.
Perhaps, but even so:

Quote:
Originally Posted by tachyonharmonic View Post
The rage we're seeing here is deserved. Not just because you put in another bad system, though. The real sickening part is the dishonest tactics you guys used. Even if you guys only made the decision to remove the dilithium drops on Monday, you knew it and you deliberately said nothing. I know you deliberately said nothing because nothing was in the patch notes about the dilithium getting cut. If you were honest, you would have put it in the notes. (If you were really honest you would have told us ahead of time) It's quite clear the devs decided to make the change and then explain it afterwards; if they told us ahead of time, they would've been directly making a change against all the terrible feedback they knew it would get. Thus they decided to hide the fact.

How are we supposed to trust you when you act this dishonestly?
Join Date: July 29 2008
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 916
# 249
11-14-2012, 10:31 AM
Quote:
Fleet Actions may be the new best source of Dilithium

i have not got any dilithium from any fleet action , did they change their mind or something ?
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 555
# 250
11-14-2012, 10:32 AM
Last night I spent 3 hours in game. During that time I tried to do as much on New Romulus as possible and 1 run on Mine Enemy. I then decided to try an Elite Infected Space STF. 5 people in queue, I waited 10 minutes at it didn't launch.

Grinding is one thing. Non productive waiting is another.
Chingachgook told me, Don't try to understand them; and don't try to make them understand you. For they are a breed apart and make no sense.
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:13 AM.