Republic Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 646
# 161
11-14-2012, 06:35 PM
Thanks my fleet is happy
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 900
# 162
11-14-2012, 06:51 PM
Originally Posted by voicesdark View Post
I started playing this when the game went free to play. Say what you will about us F2P players, but I honestly don't have the money nor interest to pay a monthly sub just for a single game when I can pick and chose what to purchase on multiple F2P games that will keep my interest in playing those games much longer than just one game.

I went from level 0-50 in six games of playing, and of course the next logical action was to start running the STFs. Within a week I was already bored of running the stfs, BUT just like with "Tour" the reward outweighs the boredom.

Personally I like the fact that they have spread Dilithium over a larger amount of actions to give some what more variety, but yes it's still a grind.

I would still like to see the 8k cap raised to 10k thou simply because of the increased systems needing Dilithium.

So Dan or anyone else with the knowledge on the economics part of the game I have a question for you please:

Would the 2-3k increase of the dilithium cap really effect the in-game economics that much now that there are all these different systems in place needing Dilithium??
Holy Frak someone who made sense in all this un-necessary hoopla...

Last edited by daedalus304; 11-14-2012 at 06:53 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 170
# 163
11-14-2012, 06:54 PM
Originally Posted by mozart2222 View Post
Thanks STO community! Now I get to run 3!!! STF's to equal the dil I could get from one 10-15 minute Starbase 24. You seem to think this is an improvement. I was quite looking forward to only doing 1-2 elite STF's a week for marks while spending the rest of the time playing the much easier, no teamwork needed Starbase for my dil. Now I get to go back to the 'ol STF grind for my dil because the community is bad at math and trying new things.

They were trying to help us, and you told them, "Stop it! We like it terrible!"

You are not being fair here!

We did not ask for Dilithium Rewards to be reduced in Fleet Actions!

We asked that the "hardest" and most tactical content of the game, the STF, get back his RIGHTFUL reward!

Even now as we speak, i still believe we are getting screwed, but now all the playerbase is getting screwed, not just STFers.

To make things RIGHT, devs should have left things as they were in FA and simply hold to their word and put back Dilithium in STF as IT WAS PROMISED at first!
Career Officer
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 3,033
# 164
11-14-2012, 07:03 PM
Originally Posted by dastahl View Post
The additional Dilithium may impact the player-to-player Dilithium exchange rates in the future, but we would rather you were having fun in Season 7 than worrying about the economy. We have enough of that to deal with in the real world.
Oh really?

Dev blog #17 (last section before the comments)

-How does Dilithium Trade factor into all of this?-
While the Dilithium Trading economy is entirely the realm of players trading with other players, our goal with the Dilithium changes in Season 7 is to stay out of the way as much as possible while increasing the amount of Dilithium earned on average by level 50 players.

We expect the market to fluctuate as players find the new balance, but in general we want players earning Dilithium to get a decent amount of Zen for their trade so that players who are putting in the most effort to earn Dilithium can find a market to trade the time they?ve spent in the game for Zen.
They say they leave the economy "ENTIRELY" up to the players and want to "stay out of the way as much as possible", in the next paragraph they insinuate they are trying to manipulate us into changing the economy, i.e. "we want players earning dilithium to get a decent amount of Zen for their trade". I don't see this ending well at all. I haven't seen the players say it is THEIR goal to have the economy changed.

Earlier in the Dev blog post there is this:
-Pre-Season 7 Dilithium Concerns-
Concern 1 ? Active level 50 players are refining far less Dilithium than we expect them to.
Prior to Season 7, the average amount of Dilithium refined by an active level 50 player was 3100 per session or 13,250 per week. That is far less than the cap of 8000 per day when you consider that most level 50 players play multiple days per week and slightly more than the average hours per session.
Of course this means we WON'T see the 8k refine cap removed/raised any time soon since according to them, there aren't enough players hitting their cap or more to warrant such a change. I'm gonna say that this makes me conclude they are going for inflating the Zen price. "Players are refining far less dilithium than we "EXPECT" them too" and the fact they are saying they want to make it easier to get Dilithium.

#1 Allow us ways and incentives to refine more Dilithium thus hitting our daily 8k limit or more.

#2 More Dilithium in game means Zen prices go up due to more demand for Zen.

#3 Due to higher demand for Zen, players need to buy more Zen to exchange for Dilithium to meet their Dilithium needs

#4 Due to more Zen being sold the company makes more money

Side note: I think the reason for the new/increased Dilithium costs for doffs at the accademy (general recruitment, reassign underperforming) is to coerce people to be more willing to buy Zen and spend it on doff packs in the C-store (hence the recent bug ship/lobi crystal/other crap rewards in the 1 particular C-store doff pack, and they make more money)

In the end everybody is happy. Cryptic/PWE makes more money, and the players (well the teenagers that are left with parents who have high limit credit cards) enjoy the new and cool stuff added to the game.

It's not about getting us to play less popular content. It's about getting us to earn more Dilithium, spend it on Zen, and sellers having to buy more Zen to meet the demand that will ensue eventually. Just my take on the whole thing.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,690
# 165
11-14-2012, 07:03 PM
Originally Posted by f2pdrakron View Post
THAT is not the problem, not by a long shoot because you just replaced one Dilithium Grind (STFs) with another (Fleet Actions).

The problem is Omega Marks.

There is NO solo content for Omega Marks besides the "[easy]" missions on Defera that pay little and they are not exactly solo friendly either that leaves with the question of how players can enter STFs without being properly geared but also what happens when nobody queues.

In 3-4 months people that play STFs will be done, they would have zero incentive to play STFs after that point and so many people that currently run STFs would stop, in part because as they grant no Dilithium amassing the amounts for extra sets would be a "double grind", in one side they would have to grind for Marks and on the other for Dilithium and since they could not do both at the same time and having extra sets serves no real reason we would start looking at longer and longer queue times until we ended up with the same situation as Fleet Actions, few to none would be playing then.

If there was no Dilithium cost attached to Set gear then yes, I could understand removing the Dilithium reward but that is not what happen? even you are putting more Dilithium sources in then you sure as hell are also adding Dilithium sinks (Embassy, Omege and Romulan Stores) and if people are "hoarding it" ... well my Advance Fleet weapon comes with a 10,000 Dilithium tag AS WELL as Fleet Mark price, you want to remove Dilithium? fine ... but also remove Dilithium COSTS from the game since everything useful apparently comes with one, down to DOFFs.

it may not be solo...but the borg sector invasions areas give 10 omega marks and 480 dilth pre block per day....not to shabby if you ask me lol

Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
I find this line of replies sadly hilarious. We put a lot of work into the massive list of fixes/changes above, and ya'll are hung up on the ability to skip our content. =p
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 6
# 166
11-14-2012, 07:05 PM
Originally Posted by chiisauma View Post
You still lied.

You still thought it was a good idea to force your players/customers to play the game in a way you found acceptable; for an amount of time per day you found acceptable, not taking into consideration if it was what they wanted or would enjoy.

You still completely ignored your player/customer feedback about your coming changes and did what you wanted, reguardless.

This is in no way good business practice. You do not ignore what custmers tell you, then tell your customers what you have decided it is they want. And you most certainly never lie to them. Not if you wish for them to remain customers for long.

As everyone else is; I am glad that you decided to re-think some of your recent decisions; and to actually take into account what it is the players/customers would like. This is definately an improvement we are all happy with.

But this never should have been an issue in the first place; and the damage is done. Restoring players/custoners confidence in you is going to take time and considerably more then an "oops, our bad" post on your part.
If I wanted this attitude of the company telling me what I want and be frelling happy with it, I would be playing EA games on Origin. The fact of the matter is, I don't and won't because EA's customer service pulls these sort of stunts CONSTANTLY.

While I'm thankful that the decision has been reversed, I can tell you I am one of those folk that's going to take a considerably long time to regain my trust (and confidence) in this. Oh, I'll still play, though it will be for considerably less time because I'm finding the requirement times for the Omega and Romulan tiers to be positively draconian. More than 36 hours to go from Tier 0 to Tier 1 (when Fleet projects at those levels were considerably less?) This qualifies as sucktastically poor grind. And earning the Romulan Marks on New Romulus stinks of the grinding I would expect in Blizzard North's World of ********.

Makes me regret not going and helping on Tribble. Not that it seemed to matter given it took backlash for Cryptic/PWE to listen
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 56
# 167
11-14-2012, 07:10 PM
I'll repost a suggestion I made earlier.

I recall the statement made in the discussion about dilithium about concerns over players 'not refining enough dilithium ore', and that got me thinking...

To make it more accessible to players, why not further increase the rewards given, particularly with the dilithium costs associated with the fleet starbase/embassy projects (especially the special projects, that eat up 200,000 dilithium) and the higher tier reputation projects (requisitions and unlocks). Here's what I'd like to propose:

1. Leave the Fleet Action dilithium rewards and cooldowns where they are right now.

Fleet Actions = 1,440 dilithium.
Cooldown = 30 minutes

2. STFs, which require serious amounts of teamwork just to complete and also achieve the optional objectives deserve large dilithium rewards for those who run them. Bump up the rewards for them to reflect the skill needed and reduce the cooldown for these missions by half.

Normal STFs = 720 dilithium.
Bonus objective = 10% bonus to dilthium and Omega Marks
Base Omega Marks stay the same.
Cooldown = 30 minutes

Elite STFs = 1,440 dilithium
Bonus objective = 25% bonus to dilithium and Omega Marks
Base Omega Marks stay the same
Borg Neural Processors stay the same.
Cooldown = 30 minutes
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 801
# 168
11-14-2012, 07:14 PM
Originally Posted by daedalus304 View Post
Holy Frak someone who made sense in all this un-necessary hoopla...
thanks I appreciate that.

There's so many numbers that they have to try to balance out that sometimes they just seem to get lost in the numbers. If people could step back and realize that in all of that sometimes they will get lost in trying to balance the numbers and it'll take a bit for them to realize it and come up with a strategy things would go so much smoother.

In the end we've gained more variety in getting Dilithium, granted not the high numbers that people want, but now there's more variety at least and that's a start. more dil per action whatever that might be really isn't the answer to everyone's prayers because in the end there's still the 8k cap.

More ways to get Dilithium and again as I suggested before a small increase to 10k or 11k for golds/lifers would take the pressure off which system to put Dilithium in. The only other suggestion I would make would be to decrease dil requirements to an even 1500 or 2000 for a project compared to something that between 1500-2000. For example taking an 1800 dil requirement and putting it either at 1500 or 2000. Then it becomes a much simpler balancing issue for players on when/where to spend Dilithium.
Career Officer
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 18
# 169
11-14-2012, 07:30 PM
Originally Posted by dastahl View Post

After many hours of deliberation and review of the post Season 7 player data, I've made the call to reverse the decision to remove Dilithium as a reward for running STFs. In addition, we've also decided to keep Dilithium as a reward in Fleet Actions.

There have been numerous posts explaining the rationale that went into the reward changes and I can clearly state that our goal of getting more Dilithium into the average player has been very successful. As the data suggested, there is a huge contingent of players that simply do not play STFs but are eager to earn Dilithium in other content. These players are benefiting from the addition of Dilithium in the Fleet Actions, so that worked well.

However, our concern that there would be too much Dilithium in the economy if we left Dilithium in both STFs and Fleet Actions has been outweighed by the frustration we've seen from STF fans since the launch of Season 7.

Season 7 is an awesome content filled update that the team is very proud of that has been overshadowed by player frustrations over the Dilithium changes. Cryptic has and always will take player feedback into consideration when making decisions and this is a case where we agree with the players that Dilithium should be back in the STFs. It is more fun to run STFs when you can earn Dilithium towards end game gear and no amount of data driven logic can outweigh this.

So here are the changes we'll be making in a maintenance build by the end of this week.
  • Normal STF runs will grant 480 Dilithium
  • Elite STF runs will grant 960 Dilithium
  • Space Fleet Action runs will grant 480 Dilithium
  • Ground Fleet Action runs will grant 640 Dilithium

This is in addition to the other rewards that STFs and Fleet Actions grant.

While this is still a change from Season 6, we hope that these new amounts will help the average player earn more Dilithium per day while maintaining the Dilithium that players who like to run STFs were receiving.

The additional Dilithium may impact the player-to-player Dilithium exchange rates in the future, but we would rather you were having fun in Season 7 than worrying about the economy. We have enough of that to deal with in the real world.

Thank you for your patience and for being the best community of any MMO.

- dstahl

(p.s. the web team has updated the blog I posted last night with these changes to help cut down on confusion.)
The key lesson everyone should take from this is, without Cryptic/PWE we would not have STO, BUT, but without US there is no STO either.

Before MAJOR changes occur that could impact core gameplay that addicts like myself (hardcore elite player) depend on for happy happy fun times, you know what I would like to see happen?


Lots of surveys. For instance if you took 50 players and asked them "hey how would you feel if you lost dil from a bunch of stuff, and yet more stuff cost dil? would you keep playing that content? would you play other stuff?" This whole entire mess could have been avoided entirely.

I'm sure you can read between the lines for this, you have devs and designers who build the game, come up with content, come up with concepts. But you are forgetting your BEST resource. The players. For a lot of us, we live, breathe, sleep and think Star Trek.

Finally I just want to say thank you for ignoring (hopefully) the MASSIVE nerdrage you guys were subjected to, thanks for the changes, I don't mind a minor reduction in dil from elites, that's fine, it was one of my suggestions, to spread things out a little bit.

Now I will be happy to do my normal grind, collecting borg processors and stuff along with my dil. I can survive not getting bonus loot. If I offended anyone with any of my posts earlier today I apologize, but you know about people and their opinions....

Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 147
# 170
11-14-2012, 07:36 PM
Originally Posted by dastahl View Post
After many hours of deliberation and review of the post Season 7 player data, I've made the call to reverse the decision to remove Dilithium as a reward for running STFs.
This is a good change, but I still think you should add small amounts of dilithium to mission replays and most PvE queue instances, and remove dilithium from the basic embassy projects.
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