Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,360
# 31
11-14-2012, 11:51 AM
I actually did publish a couple of Foundry missions a long time ago. I put a lot of thought into varied combat, interaction goals and multiple map moves between painstakingly-created environments and short plots that at least had some logical consistency to them.

It was a MONUMENTAL pain in the tuchus. The whole process, even once I figured it out, made me want to punch a kitten. The only way I see myself ever doing that again is to figure out a replacement for the 1-click Officer Reports dilithium grind.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 522
# 32
11-14-2012, 12:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hanover2 View Post
I actually did publish a couple of Foundry missions a long time ago. I put a lot of thought into varied combat, interaction goals and multiple map moves between painstakingly-created environments and short plots that at least had some logical consistency to them.

It was a MONUMENTAL pain in the tuchus. The whole process, even once I figured it out, made me want to punch a kitten. The only way I see myself ever doing that again is to figure out a replacement for the 1-click Officer Reports dilithium grind.
So, in other words, you have no interest in the Foundry as story-telling--it was a dilithium exploit that is no longer of use to you so it should go away for everyone. Nice.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 12,514
# 33
11-14-2012, 12:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hanover2 View Post
I actually did publish a couple of Foundry missions a long time ago. I put a lot of thought into varied combat, interaction goals and multiple map moves between painstakingly-created environments and short plots that at least had some logical consistency to them.

It was a MONUMENTAL pain in the tuchus. The whole process, even once I figured it out, made me want to punch a kitten. The only way I see myself ever doing that again is to figure out a replacement for the 1-click Officer Reports dilithium grind.
yeah, I know what you mean, but... I like the current state of foundry, could be better, but it's better than it was.
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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,360
# 34
11-14-2012, 12:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajstoner View Post
So, in other words, you have no interest in the Foundry as story-telling--it was a dilithium exploit that is no longer of use to you so it should go away for everyone. Nice.
Not at all. I hope it's still there for anyone who enjoys using it as a vehicle for telling or reading your fan fiction. More power and the best of luck to you with that.

There's just nowhere near enough incentive for me to wade through all the crap to find the occasional gem, let alone going through the eye-bleeding experience of creating it myself again.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 12,514
# 35
11-14-2012, 03:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hanover2 View Post
Not at all. I hope it's still there for anyone who enjoys using it as a vehicle for telling or reading your fan fiction. More power and the best of luck to you with that.

There's just nowhere near enough incentive for me to wade through all the crap to find the occasional gem, let alone going through the eye-bleeding experience of creating it myself again.
Read the description of the mission before you decide to play it. that usually gives you enough info.
HAIL HYDRA!

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I can haz joystick!
MMOs aren't charities. Corporations are supposed to make a profit. It's what they do.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 314
# 36
11-15-2012, 06:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by markhawkman View Post
Yeah, Nicha, play "Flight of the Kitty Hawk" and then tell me that you think all foundry missions suck....
Flight of the Kitty Hawk is one of my favorite set of missions. I will the run that set on other characters as well.

However, there are a couple of times where it gets bogged down in too much text being thrown at the player at one time. When I say too much, it refers to multiple screens of backstory interrupting the flow of the mission. One thing a Foundry author has to be careful of is bringing the "activity" in the mission to a grinding halt. Kitty Hawk is powerful enough overall to overcome this one shortcoming (I think it is in the second mission) and I heartily encourage STO players to give the Kitty Hawk missions a try.

But that is perhaps the one thing that sometimes causes me to hesitate when looking at Foundry missions is time. There are missions that look very interesting, but do say that they are 2-3 hours. That's too long for a single mission (30-90 is about my limit), especially considering that I never know if I'll have 2-3 hours of dedicated playtime on a given night.

For MMO writing, I think 30-90 is an appropriate length for single missions. Splitting a 2-3 hour mission into two missions would be ideal, but does require more Foundry slots for the more prolific writers.

If Cryptic wants the Foundry authors to take up the slack with regard to real storyline missions, then I think they should give them more slots up front so that they can write them more like story arcs than single massive story missions. Having a story *arc* go 2-3 hours or more is certainly not an issue for me since I can take them in bite size chunks, but for single missions it can be a little much.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 314
# 37
11-15-2012, 07:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajstoner View Post
Actually, the best missions in the game are foundry missions and there are dozens better than anything Cryptic has put out. Of course I'm sure YOURS put everyone's to shame, what with your "ridiculously high standards" and all. I'll look for them...
That is very subjective, though. I've played or attempted to play missions on the UGC list as "the best" missions, and some of them I never completed -- because they didn't live up to the hype or even to the standard dev content.

Others, like Kitty Hawk and A Will and a Barclay, kept me interested. A Will and a Barclay is a pretty good example of intermixing story text and player activity to keep the story flowing.

Some Foundry authors, however, seem to focus too much on the textual side and really drag the flow to a screeching halt. Most MMO players -- including those of us who play primarily for story content -- are not looking to read a novel in game. If the author stops us dead with multiple screens of long, scrolling text to fit in all the backstory you would find *over time* in a good novel, they're going to lose the player.

What constitutes good novel writing does not necessarily translate into good MMO writing. For the game, text and player activity should be well-balanced. Immersion is not just about reading the story, it's about *participating* in it. The characters should be an active part of the story.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,798
# 38
11-15-2012, 08:13 AM
That's the reality of user-generated content. Some of it won't be as good as dev content, some of it will be better. Authors come from a lot of different backgrounds and have a lot of different skills and skill levels in the things it takes to make Foundry missions. Some of us, such as myself, are even professional writers. But, as you said, evaluating whether a mission is "good" is a subjective assessment, and its one each player has to make for themselves. Look at the reviews on any mission, you'll see a review that says "This mission sucks" right next to a review that says "This is the greatest mission ever." This has been happening since the first third-party mods were made for Doom and Quake. It all depends on what you like.

Players look for different things in their content. The actual devs deal with this every day. For every person yelling on the forums about wanting more story content, there's one yelling for PvP content.

You can't please everyone. There is, quite simply, no way around that.
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Last edited by drogyn1701; 11-15-2012 at 08:21 AM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 115
# 39
11-15-2012, 08:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by broadnax View Post
That is very subjective, though. I've played or attempted to play missions on the UGC list as "the best" missions, and some of them I never completed -- because they didn't live up to the hype or even to the standard dev content.

Others, like Kitty Hawk and A Will and a Barclay, kept me interested. A Will and a Barclay is a pretty good example of intermixing story text and player activity to keep the story flowing.

Some Foundry authors, however, seem to focus too much on the textual side and really drag the flow to a screeching halt. Most MMO players -- including those of us who play primarily for story content -- are not looking to read a novel in game. If the author stops us dead with multiple screens of long, scrolling text to fit in all the backstory you would find *over time* in a good novel, they're going to lose the player.

What constitutes good novel writing does not necessarily translate into good MMO writing. For the game, text and player activity should be well-balanced. Immersion is not just about reading the story, it's about *participating* in it. The characters should be an active part of the story.
Just curious, but you talk about long text of back story, but what about conversations?

As an example, in part two of my series Allegiance, the mission starts with you meeting the senior officers and other characters that will be with you throughout the rest of the series. Now a number of the conversations are entirely optional, as has been suggested to me before, but the main briefing is not. It is long, but it is also interactive with the player to a degree and involves both an introduction to other characters as well as setting the tone for the series. Would you consider a conversation involving multiple characters (sometimes talking to the player, sometimes to other NPCs) an issue?
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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 844
# 40
11-15-2012, 10:27 AM
I don't think most people aim to make 2-3 hour missions, it just sort of happens by accident.

Also, length can be highly variable in some missions, depending on whether you interact with all of the NPCs, etc.


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