Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,014
# 11
11-16-2012, 05:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bugshu View Post
The bids on dilithium are low and the asks are high. Anybody that thinks that there would be an instant collaps would have been mistaken. The problem will not be where dilithium is today. The problem will be where dilithium is in 2 months. Right now, the new content is still fresh. When people realize in a few weeks that its more grind than the old system thats when the real problems will arise.

There is no way that you can remove huge chunks of dilithium from the game without it impacting the price or value of zen unless of course you get a counterbalance of people just buying less of it. If people start buying less zen then the prices will obviously stabilize to correspond with Cryptic handing out less dilithium. Im not sure this what Cryptic intended or hoped for but hey it could happen.

It doesnt mean those of us that know how markets work were wrong. It just means that the supply of reduced amounts of zen corresponded to the reduced amounts of dilithium.

I guarantee you that deflating the amount of dilithium in the game will not inflate the amount of Zen purchased to buy it. Rampant inflation in the value of Dilithium will ultimately crush the value of Zen and peoples desire to purchase it.

Clickers and easy Zen was good for the game. It artificially inflated the value of Zen and gave people a reason to buy it.

Cryptic thinks Im wrong.

Im not. Im mean cmon. Economies take time to turn around and STO is no excpetion. People still have reserves of dilithium. As those start to trickle away then the prices will adjust. If players start the exodus then there will be less dilithium injected into the exchange for those hard core zen buyers to purchase and the inflation trends towards the value of dilithium will accelerate. If you want the value of dilithium to remain low and the value of zen to remain high then obviously you need players earning dilithium. Cryptic doesnt want players earning dilithium. They want to crush the value of the only product they have to sell.

You know there are people that think raising taxes will improve the economy and increase the money supply. This massive reduction of Dilithium in the game is such a Homer Simpson D'oh moment. Its jaw droppingly stupid.

Bug
You put it much more eloquently than I ever could thank you. Yes the issue is not the price drop, it is the decrease in volume traded that will impact Cryptic negatively.

*edit*
And to not just provide negativity the easiest solution is for cryptic to put a 'daily log in' reward. Carrots cryptic, they work better than the stick.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 65
# 12
11-16-2012, 07:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bugshu View Post
I cannot lay claim to the euphemisms going around and the players calling the changes to season 7 the Dilithium Depression, or the Dilithium Dilemma or Dilithium gate but it was incredibly obvious that once the players saw them that they would revolt.

It surprised me as to the absolute instant outrage players felt and saw as they realized that their access to Dilithium was being pulled from the game.

There were loads of fan boy outcrys about how players could do content they dont like to do to earn dilithium and it was oh so easy but the wide majority of players instantly revolted and screamed about the changes.

Honestly, I felt that it would have been far better to listen to those that were speaking up before these changes went into place rather than knee jerk reactions afterwards to deal with instant hate and disappointment afterwards. Probably by now, DStahl has lost credibility from the player base and most will see him at best as a shill for PWE and at worst as a bold faced liar. It would be incredibly difficult for him to restore his credibility and believability when he speaks to us in the future. I seriously doubt people will harbor much trust of him in the future. Posts were written warning him about the perils of travelling down this path and frankly they were ignored. Damage to respect and reputation have occured and that probably will never return. I doubt he can regain the respect and loyalty of the player base ever again. Gecko may have been walking that tightrope but he was less vocal in his misinformation.

Its 36 hours from the launch of sucky 7 and reaction has been overwhelming and mostly negative from all but the die hard of fanboys. Many posts have been written about feeling removed from the game, resistance at being forced to grind missions that players do not like, time gated "requirements", the ubiquitous and never to be forgotten comment of "working as intended".

The short version of all this negativity is that Cryptic is saying they want to reward players less for playing their game and to give them less dilithium. You have to work harder, play more, and spend more time for less reward.

Anything you punish or reward less will always result in reductions. If you lower rewards and tie them to time based gates so that you are giving less reward for time spent in this game then you are going to get players spending less time in this game. You lower the rewards and you lower peoples reasons to show up and play.

Even if Cryptic restores "some" dilithium back into the game via stfs its not going to be enough. Players like having a bit of spending power and having some access to dilithium. This is being lowered and players are adjusting their expectations and enjoyment factor to match the progression.

Despite hating I told you so's, its necessary to point out that before the foundry came out I made 2 bold predictions and 1. was that players would use it to find exploits and 2. that cryptic would use it as an excuse to punt new content. Both have happened and Cryptics attempt at forcing players to play long foundry missions more as other access to dilithium has been lowered or removed is ample evidence that those predictions have come true.

Ive never spoken to a player in this game who told me that they have or owned too much dilithium. Most complain that they do not have enough and that it is too hard to get. There are people that tell you how easy it is to get but to me they are just shills and stooges to suggest that their opinions are superior when they start talking about how other people should spend their time.

Customers and players want enhanced value for the time they spend in game and not reduced value. Love them or hate them, the clickers gave good value for the time spent, and players came to factor this into their expectations of the game and landscape for their enjoyment of it. Another posters said that it was an exploit but a happy exploit that people liked. Removing things that people like is not a great way to run a business. Putting in things they dont like is disastor. People like having a bit of dilithium come their way daily and they dont like being dilithium poor.

Returning dilithium to stfs will help a bit and I applaud Cryptic for reversing themselves and their policy on it. Its still quite the reduction and I still think people will see sharp and catastrophic reductions in the amount of dilithium they actually earn and refine.

Again, running the game in a fashion that pushes players into being dilithium poor will not go over well in the long run. The dilithium exchange will continue to see an erosion in the value of zen, crafting thats mostly dead will die further, fleets will reduce projects and/or quit loading them, everything that went right with season 6 and starbases will be reversed and become a moot point, and players will approach this game with a grind mentality rather than a have fun attitude.

Cryptic would have done well to increase the rewards for the missions they hoped players would play more rather than reduce the rewards for thosee that players liked, enjoyed and used. And yes the clicker console mission was a mission players, liked and enjoyed and used. Believe me or not, the clicker console, mission was probably the most popular mission in the game. I dont care of someone thinks its an exploit or not; it was a popular mission that players felt gave them good value and they played. If cryptic didnt want exploits they should have thought about them before rushing out the foundry. They knew this would happen; they were warned it would happen; and it became part of the landscape. Removing it after players spent a year making it the most popular mission in the game seems shortsited.

Cryptic devs just tell me Im stupid and wrong and that I dont know a thing about what makes players happy in this game. They tell me that they can throw more grind content at us and the fact that players have more to do and will have to work harder will make them enjoy the game more. The facts are that players that have easy access to items will take them and go play the missions they love. Players that do not and have to constantly grind for them like a mule following a carrot will find something else to do.

The outcry was instant and it was huge and while mostly focused towards stfs there was an underlying theme I think Cryptic refuses to see. Less dilithium and more grind to get it means less fun for players. You cannot give players less currency to spend and then expect them to enjoy the game more because of it.

STO needs more fun. Its crying for more fun. Removing fun from the game is a catastrophic fail method of trying to achieve the goal of attracting new players and keeping the ones you have and getting both subsets of customers to play more.

The bottom line is that STO is a product sold and by reducing dilithium payouts and rewards, Cryptic has installed an absolutely huge price increase to play their game. They are not raising prices based on the purchase of zen. But indeed they are raising the prices for having fun by reducing the value of your time that you share with them.

This is not a good thing.

Love them or hate them, Clickers became part of the game, and the value of the dilithium injected into the game were an important part of giving people value for their time spent here.

You remove value; and you remove fun; and you remove a really good reason for people to play and you just might wake up and see that youve removed your customer who their time in another game where they feel they are being rewarded for their time and are having more fun as they can experience gaming instead of grind.

Cryptic does not see it this way; they tell me Im wrong; and they truly believe giving players less dilithium makes it fun for them. I keep desperately posting and hoping they will wake up but I dont expect it to happen.

One way or another; clickers need to return; or Cryptic needs to find better ways to inject dilithium into the game. Or they need to drastically and sharply reduce prices for everything that needs it. The dilithium depression will drop down to the dilithium recession as they reverse a couple of changes but players still will not have as much as they want and things people like such as fleet progression, crafting, exchanging dilithium for zen, and upconverting doffs, will seem to be more out of reach of players. Its a bad trend. Its going to continue. And despite knee jerk changes to reduce awful decisions, we are not going to convince cryptic of their mistakes and get them to change their minds.

And many, many, players will slowly trickle away to other entertainment options where they are sold a product that respects their time and financial investment and partnership in it.

Adding 960 dilithium back to stfs is a bandaid on top of a shotgun blast to the gut. It helps a little and the bleeding sill slow a bit. But its not enough. Cryptic needs to be rewarding time played in their game at a higher rate and not a lower rate. If they dont do it then players will find a game that will. People are saying I like this game and I play here because I have friends here. Long term they need to be saying that they play this game because its actually fun. Right now that may not be true. Reward us for our time. Fix it.

Bug
An absollutely fantastic post, every player needs to read this and more then that the devs need to pay attention.

Again well said.
Career Officer
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 2,417
# 13
11-16-2012, 07:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bugshu View Post
...The short version of all this negativity is that Cryptic is saying they want to reward players less for playing their game and to give them less dilithium. You have to work harder, play more, and spend more time for less reward...

The intent is quite clear. Cryptic/PWE want you to start spending real cash to buy Zen instead of easily grinding out Dilithium and converting it for free.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,202
# 14
11-16-2012, 07:43 AM
I'm not sure I understand your concern because I think that's just your point of view.

The solutions are easy:

- Cryptic's revenue isn't and shouldn't be your concern at all. You're here to play and enjoy a game the way you want (for free or with money shortcuts), not to worry about it. If they need more money, you can be sure they will add new ways to earn it: more pay to win ships, more doff packs, reputation tokens, etc. Trust them in their ability to make profits, that's what they are best at.

- If a player burns out, a new one will buy stuff int he store. That's how games work, it's a flow, and while some players quit, some others join the game.

- Don't predict doom, because we're still waiting for it.
Republic Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 145
# 15
11-16-2012, 07:55 AM
It's really amazing how Season 7 has changed the game in the most negative way possible. There's dozens of threads about how bad it is and I still find people in Zone chat defending Cryptic like they're robots.

I really wish Cryptic would make this right and stop robbing the community of their dilithium/fun factor and find new ways to make money; instead of taking the laziest possible way to rake in cash.

There's so many different ways to do it rather than rip off the community and take things away from them. Makes you wonder if the people working at Cryptic like Star Trek at all or consider it their cash cow/job only. I'd like to think they like Star Trek and can find better ways to make cash + a way to make this right but I might be experiencing wishful thinking; because the moment we all get our starbases done you KNOW they're going to add something else immensely expensive.

Losing the point in playing a lot of players are....
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,202
# 16
11-16-2012, 08:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by admiralthorr360 View Post
I really wish Cryptic would make this right and stop robbing the community of their dilithium/fun factor and find new ways to make money; instead of taking the laziest possible way to rake in cash.
So how do you think they should "make cash"? If you think they should. Because now, as it is, you can earn a fair amount of dil by just playing the game (since STFs gives a lot of it now) and contribute to your projects or starbase quite easily. It takes time OR money. I couldn't bold OR enough. If you have neither then you might have trouble playing STO but that's how MMOs work anyway.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 185
# 17
11-16-2012, 08:12 AM
As a dilithium contributor to the exchange (about 3-4 mil since I started back in April), I have to say I will be stockpiling now just in case they don?t back down on the doff trade ups and stf item costs. I?d still like the shiny new ships, but priorities are priorities and there is probably a lot more f2p guys like me doing the same.
"He tasks me. He tasks me, and I shall have him. For every doff box bought, I'll chase him round the Moons of Nibia and round the Antares Maelstrom and round Perdition's flames. For every single doff box opened, I stab at thee from hell's heart. For every single doff contributed, I spit my last breath at thee..." Khan Playing STO
Republic Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 145
# 18
11-16-2012, 08:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by diogene0 View Post
So how do you think they should "make cash"? If you think they should. Because now, as it is, you can earn a fair amount of dil by just playing the game (since STFs gives a lot of it now) and contribute to your projects or starbase quite easily. It takes time OR money. I couldn't bold OR enough. If you have neither then you might have trouble playing STO but that's how MMOs work anyway.

Trait Retrain Token (Much Like Skill Respecs)

DPS Meter Option (Tracks DPS In Stfs/actions + summary of team's dps, seperates crits with regular dps/filter options etc) with permanent/temporary purchase options with Zen.

Tribble Shelf/Home etc (for people who like collecting tribbles especially for those crazy doff missions (Zen Cost Per 'Warehouse')

New Costumes For KDF

New Emote Packs (Emote Hotkey tray would make emotes more of a 'find' so you could pres 1,2,3 etc when on the ground/could witch between regular battle tray etc)

Just a few ideas; and as for "STFs giving tons of dilithiuM" it's still nerfed and there's still an increased need for dilithium especially with the Romulan / Omega rep system diverting time that could be used for earning dilithium to buy equipment from the Fleet Starbases etc etc... so one can hardly say "tons" especially since 5bnps = 1k dilithium (I got way more with the old system than I do currently).
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,202
# 19
11-16-2012, 08:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by admiralthorr360 View Post
Just a few ideas; and as for "STFs giving tons of dilithiuM" it's still nerfed and there's still an increased need for dilithium especially with the Romulan / Omega rep system diverting time that could be used for earning dilithium to buy equipment from the Fleet Starbases etc etc... so one can hardly say "tons" especially since 5bnps = 1k dilithium (I got way more with the old system than I do currently).
1 bnp = 200 dil
50 omega marks = 500 dil (at T5). On bonus event you get almost 1k worth of stuff.
one STF = 960 dil.

That's a huge buff to the average STF rewards, but still people are complaining. I don't get why. I guess another dev blog making math for people would be required to make everyone happy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by admiralthorr360 View Post
DPS Meter Option (Tracks DPS In Stfs/actions + summary of team's dps, seperates crits with regular dps/filter options etc) with permanent/temporary purchase options with Zen.
Not sure we're playing the same game. It would make sense on a FPS.

More cosmetics? I'll come eventually but that's not really what the game needs. The game could use more content, instead of new kdf pants. Anyway new costumes are released at a very high rate. And for the KDF i'd take more episodes instead of costumes, thanks.

Last edited by diogene0; 11-16-2012 at 08:36 AM.
Republic Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 145
# 20
11-16-2012, 08:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by diogene0 View Post
1 bnp = 200 dil
50 omega marks = 500 dil (at T5). On bonus event you get almost 1k worth of stuff.
one STF = 960 dil.

That's a huge buff to the average STF rewards, but still people are complaining. I don't get why. I guess another dev blog making math for people would be required to make everyone happy.



Not sure we're playing the same game. It would make sense on a FPS.

More cosmetics? I'll come eventually but that's not really what the game needs. The game could use more content, instead of new kdf pants. Anyway new costumes are released at a very high rate. And for the KDF i'd take more episodes instead of costumes, thanks.
Not sure you get the idea of the DPS Meter/Statistics idea but just as it's nice to know where people are in a PVP it'd be nice for a STF or a Fleet action. The meter? It might give you an idea of how your setup is doing if you're new. However it's not the most needed update really but I can see how this might actually be workable somehow with further development on the said idea.

As for simple mathematics; you're looking at a system that will take days, even weeks to get to tier 5 and add that stipulation for someone who's paid for extra character slots/toons.. and you're seeing prison bars around where a once open field was. It's pure punishment to have your conversion crates locked as well. You shouldn't be restricted from using what you accumulated or earned previously at all.

Let's not forget that you're spending that 'extra dilithium' to grind up to be able to get 'extra dilithium' as you call it. Being able to see the store and not being able to purchase the items until you reach a tier is better than not seeing it all being in the dark as to the costs of the items as well.

Grinding for the right to buy equipment I can understand; but to grind and want dilithium from your Omega Marks? Shouldn't be a restriction IMHO. So 'extra dilithium' you preciously refer to is behind the Great Wall Of China; up and over the mountain that is "grind".


In all honesty I think people have a right to complain about the manner this update was done especially when we were told one thing; while another happened. You might call that life but I call it a lack of manners. You might disagree with me but you better not tell me I have no right to my opinion or viewpoint with all things considered just because you're contented with the new limitations sugar coated as 'new content'.
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