Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,202
# 31
11-18-2012, 05:04 AM
If you ever checked the duty officer forums you'd know that all of your complaints come from ignorance. The doff system can and do work without the grinder, it's been a season 6 addition and we did pretty well prior to this one. We could get a full purple roster, it took time but it was a real achievement. We're more or less back to this, with a money shortcut option for lazy players, and since the starbases will never require something else than free white doff i don't see any issue here.

Last edited by diogene0; 11-18-2012 at 05:08 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 125
# 32
11-18-2012, 05:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by diogene0 View Post
If you ever checked the duty officer forums you'd know that all of your complaints come from ignorance. The doff system can and do work without the grinder, it's been a season 6 addition and we did pretty well prior to this one. We could get a full purple roster, it took time but it was a real achievement. We're more or less back to this, with a money shortcut option for lazy players, and since the starbases will never require something else than free white doff i don't see any issue here.
Actually you're quite wrong!!! Let me refer you to this STO-Wiki article with a list of inputs.
http://www.stowiki.org/List_of_starbase_projects.

Granted these are season 6 inputs but
highly unlikly to have become more lenient. Upgrading the industrial fabricators requires 100 rare engineering or operations offiicers (tier IV). Upgrading the shipyards requires 100 Raretactical or security officers. Stationing a vulcan envoy requires 7 purple doffs.

As for your comment that I'm too lazy to go for doff missions like officer exchange in cardassia. YOU MISS POINT ENTIRELY! The point is something has been taken from the players. Something that was free, and earned, is now prohibitiviely expensive and for no reason whatsoever!! Since I pay my hard earned money into this game, I have the right to give feedback as to how the game is being run. You're either unable to comprehend the difference between laziness and my objection to being cheated or willfully ignorant. The later is the case I suspect because you don't want to believe you're being cheated. I will not participate. I have the right to voice my opposition, and I have the right to convince others of my point of view as well.

Last edited by captainbrady; 11-18-2012 at 05:43 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 25
# 33
11-18-2012, 05:51 AM
In agreement with this too, My fleet has ground to a entire halt due to the excessive prices and requirements.

Fully supported by the members of fleet.

No in game purchases will happen with money or dilithium from my fleet... Horde it all i say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainbrady View Post
This is an open letter to the devs.


On behalf of my fleet "Terran Empire Special Forces" as well as any other like minded gamers, we are pleased to see your willingness to listen to your customers, and we certainly welcome your decision to restore dilithium (dil) to STFs as well as add dil to fleet missions. However, we think you can still do much better. Even with your compromise, you have taken far more from the customers than you have given, and we expect more out of you if you expect us to continue to participate in this game or support it financially.

When I started this game, crafting was free of any monetary input. Similar, the doff system was free to recruit, and had a nominal fee to upgrade. The idea was simple. It was a way for a player to "earn" something of value, instead of pulling out our credit cards. This is a feature in most MMORPGs whether the game is free to play or not. Since going Star Trek Online went free to play you have added unreplicable materials for 1000 dil., and the most expensive items (which are far from the best items in the game) are prohibitively expensive. The result has been a decline in crafting and makes it much more difficult for senior members of any fleet to help junior members.

Let me turn my attention to the doff system as this is the straw that broke the camel?s back for me. I strongly disapprove of the changes to crafting, but most of us put up with it. The decision to add incredibly high monetary inputs (dil) to the doff system has rendered the system useless. Before recruiting was free, now it costs 1000 (dil). Given that fleet base projects and now embassies require and obscene amount of doffs (e.g. tier iv tactical exercises requires 180doffs for a mere 1000xp). If we take the example in parentheses, most general recruiting missions give 1 green and 3 white doffs. Assuming all were security or tactical (which would never ever happen), the minimum cost is 60, 000 dil. Yes I am fully aware that tactical recruiting missions are available free of charge, but the time gate has been doubled.
This aspect of the doff mission is completely unacceptable.

You also made upgrading doffs way too expensive. For example:
Common doff reassignment: 600 dil (was 5)
Uncommon doff reassignment: 3000 dil (was 50)
Rare doff reassignment: 6000 dil (was 500)

Yeah,that's fair right? Especially since an input of 5 lower ranking doffs is required, and I might get something worthless like a bartender or a cook. I know the counter argument is that one can get very rare doffs exploration missions. There?s one problem with that argument. The doffs from exploration missions are less useful. None of the exploration mission doffs have resolve, which thanks to your planning, is a critical trait in many missions. The other disadvantage is those doffs are bound, so I can?t even trade them if I don?t like them.

Now I will address one of the most annoying insults to everyone?s intelligence you said in your post to the community. In one of your posts to the STO community, you said the following Mr. Stahl:

"This is in addition to the other rewards that STFs and Fleet Actions grant.

While this is still a change from Season 6, we hope that these new amounts will help the average player earn more Dilithium per day while maintaining the Dilithium that players who like to run STFs were receiving.

The additional Dilithium may impact the player-to-player Dilithium exchange rates in the future, but we would rather you were having fun in Season 7 than worrying about the economy. We have enough of that to deal with in the real world."

We know you aren't concerned about dil inflation given that the fleet projects cost incredible amounts of dil, and you have added a further dil sink, the fleet embassy, so please spare us the condescending talk of your "concern for dil prices." When you first introduced the exchange in Jan 2012, the dil/zen price was 450 per zen. Up until the launch of season 6, the price was steady between 250 and 300 dil. Following the launch of season 6, the dil exchange price was around 160. Currently the dil/zen is 143dil/ zen point. In fact I worked out the exact week when dil fell like a rock using excel and my own dil exchange history and determined that the price dropped by 50% within a week after the season 6 launch. (I wanted to share my data, but I apparently can't post images). It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that projects with 200,000 dil are going to drive up the price of dil. The new fleet embassy will make this condition even worse.



You have made this game far too expensive to enjoy, and many in my fleet are considering quitting. In order to reduce the number who leave due to the incredible financial burden you have placed on my fleet members, my fleet will cease participating in your overly expensive fleet project/embassy system. We have decided that the costs far outweigh the benefits. We will cease parcipating in any type of fleet projects, if we play your game at all (and no trolls you can't haz (sic) my stuff) unless the doff mission returns to pre-season 7 conditions. We also want the dil paid out on STFs restored to pre season 7 levels. Sorry, for elite STFs, we are entitled to 1000 dil. As a gesture of good will, we would appreciate that you eliminate or reduce the unreplicable materials requirement for crafting. Given that the fleet base/embassy projects cost such a large amount of dil, there is no cause for concern regarding dil prices. Adding the dil tax on crafting and now doffs will do very little to keep the price of dil up (compared to the bases) and it simply makes PWE look greedy (which is why so many of us are angry, in case you haven?t noticed). We hope other fleets will make the wise decision and cease participating in fleet projects as well until the devs, PWE and its shareholders come to their senses. In addition, I have canceled my gold membership, and have no intention of subscribing until sanity returns
to PWE.


One warning to Mr. Stahl, the dev team, and the community managers about censorship. Should you feel the need to censor this post, because you can't stand to hear the truth, please be aware that the internet is a market place of ideas, and your forum isn't the only place online to post about Star Trek online. Please keep that in mind, as censorship only highlights the weakness of your position, especially if the post contains nothing in violation of your own forum rules (flaming, trolling, etc) If this post is censored it will demonstrate to everyone that you have no argument against what I have said.

Kind Regards,

Fleet Admiral Brady (Terran Empire Special Forces)
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,590
# 34
11-18-2012, 06:02 AM
I am neutral on what OP said, but I would like to point out a few things. S7 has for the most part been about neutral with it's reception. There are those who love it (... no comment), and those who hate it (OP and his fleet it seems), and those who look at it as just another change, and kinda go with it (about half the players (OPINION, NOT FACT) and some lazy guys), and then guys like me who try to see the reason behind the changes, and may or may not succeed in doing so, but also go with it.

I will agree, the DOff changes are... sudden, but not entirely unexpected. Pre-S7 it was easy to farm purple DOffs using the DOff change in system. It was also cheap. Possibly too cheap, and possibly too easy. BUT the saving grace there was the randomness of what you got back. Now, you still have that randomness, but for a far more prohibitive cost, which means that players will either rage about it and complain, or just be more cautious when using this method.

The dilithium sink? I also agree, this game has become quite the grindfest. Boringly so. S6, what I used to do was log on, refine dil, go do some quick dailies, then PvP or STF for the next few hours with my usual team-mates from the PESTF and ESTF channels. We had quite a blast. Now, my routine consists of log on, refine dil, do some DOff missions, fly around for more DOff missions, check mail, check rep, advance rep, then log off. Total time on char: 15-20 minutes TOPS, as compared to the 4 or 5 HOURS I used to play shooting at Borg and laughing at the idiocy on DS9. And when I run out of dil? I dunno. XP

So far it seems like I am in support of OP right? Well here's where I diverge with him on opinion.

For starters, I freakin LOVE the updates they did to NPCs, the Borg especially. I also love the Tholians on elite. Hence why I find an interesting combination of frustration and amusement when I read all the Borg rage threads here on the forums XD. All the AI updates and weapon updates on elite npcs are great. No more facerolling, actual brain required.

Also, the reputation system, although it is clunky, I have to look at it from the perspective of their target playerbase: Not us vet players, but the new guys. The newly christened Vice Admirals and Lieutenant Generals. I did some quick calculations, and the devs were right. Most of us if we were lucky would pick up our first mk XII set within the first 200 or so ESTFs (ground-wise, space usually within the first 50 or so). We would then usually pick up our second around the 300 mark (space usually around 80-90 mark). From what I've calculated, the number of ESTFs you actually have to run has dropped dramatically for a mk XII ground set (again based off of conjecture, not fact, since I am not tier 5). Also it is easier to get the ground sets, since guess what, YOU NO LONGER HAVE TO RUN EGSTFs TO GET THE GROUND EQUIPMENT. Total bs imo (says the guy who had to do 175 successful IGE runs to get his first proto shield tech, to say nothing of the many failed pug rounds), but that's again aimed for the newbies, not the vets. Looking at it from that PoV, I suddenly see that it's actually easier. Not better mind you, since I say you aren't deserving of a full mk XII set unless you've done the room, been one shotted by armek, and taken a plasma bath (to say nothing of the hundreds of deaths from the plasma spewing heavy and elite tac drones).

My final point to add in:
S7 was predicted to be a huge change. They warned us about it in dev blogs, podcasts, and through sneak peeks (I am still laughing at the appearance of random wells-class starships throughout the game a few weeks before the temporal lock boxes were released). And now that it's here, it won't leave. I will quote Kung Fu Panda 2: "Hope you like it, because you can't return it!!" That's what S7 is. It's the explosive present. There are good things about it (pretty colors... and THOLIANS), and bad things about it (dil sink, grindfest, idiot BOff programming on New Romulus), but in the end, it's what we get.

So you and your fleet can leave. It's your prerogative. But I will remind you, despite all the bad vibe, look at it this way. We have lost some, but we have gained so much. Better NPCs, new items, new opportunities, ludicrously low exchange prices, and no more of those annoying 1% chance drops on proto ground tech (curse you IGE... curse you...). And much also hasn't changed. Morn is still at quarks drinking some unknown beverage with tales to tell, those morons on Q'onos are still doing 0 damage to each other in the ring with their dysfunctional batt'leths, and you can still get glitched into the middle of San Fransisco Bay at Starfleet Academy. So see? You haven't lost everything.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder. <--- DR proved me wrong!
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,158
# 35
11-18-2012, 07:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by xantris View Post
This is a game forum. 95% of posts are negative regardless of the games situation. Game forums are where people come to ***** and complain.

Right now I'm looking at a ESD packed full of ships. Ad I haven't been able to get in a damn tholian alert all day because too many people are queueing into the zone(fix it cryptic, this has been a problem with alert for a while now)

As to the OPs post, the dilithium requirement is small and this post is ridiculous, it takes 10 minutes to earn 1k dilithium
I fully agree with this post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainbrady View Post
Actually you're quite wrong!!! Let me refer you to this STO-Wiki article with a list of inputs.
http://www.stowiki.org/List_of_starbase_projects.

Granted these are season 6 inputs but
highly unlikly to have become more lenient. Upgrading the industrial fabricators requires 100 rare engineering or operations offiicers (tier IV). Upgrading the shipyards requires 100 Raretactical or security officers. Stationing a vulcan envoy requires 7 purple doffs.

As for your comment that I'm too lazy to go for doff missions like officer exchange in cardassia. YOU MISS POINT ENTIRELY! The point is something has been taken from the players. Something that was free, and earned, is now prohibitiviely expensive and for no reason whatsoever!! Since I pay my hard earned money into this game, I have the right to give feedback as to how the game is being run. You're either unable to comprehend the difference between laziness and my objection to being cheated or willfully ignorant. The later is the case I suspect because you don't want to believe you're being cheated. I will not participate. I have the right to voice my opposition, and I have the right to convince others of my point of view as well.
How am I cheated out of something I never used in the first place? For comparison, before the doffgrinder was created, you were lucky to find the career cadres (tactical, engineering, science, and civil corps).

Furthermore, ALL DOFF PRICES FOR STARBASES ARE, FROM S7 RELEASE, NOW IN WHITES. Not sure about embassies though, heard rumors about greens being required for some projects. I'll have to investigate that.

Again, your refusal to accept this situation can only result in an ulcer due to your immense frustration.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Infinite possibilities have implications that could not be completely understood if you turned this entire universe into a giant supercomputer.
And I don't pretend to understand them.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 49
# 36
11-18-2012, 07:54 AM
I think like many times in the past the community as much as we hate certain things love others, we will simply do what we always do put up with it.
Simply because no matter how valid or invalid our arguements and points are for those of us who have been here since closed beta we know that no matter how hard you shout its like trying bang your head of a rubber wall.
Ultimatly we knew certain things were coming some good some not so good but do you honestly think after all this time the Dstahl and his team give 2 dog turds what we think or want.
So its a bad case of report the bugs like we always do, the fan boys will be fan boys and the folks with genuine gripes will end up getting hacked off and go play something else for a bit and the whiners while whine about everything.
So in summation New boss same as old boss your still screwed/unscrewed/existentialy fraked.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 88
# 37 Lazy ???
11-18-2012, 08:19 AM
i am not Lazy i just have a limited time i can play and do not want to waist it runing hither and yon looking for doff's. you unenployed jack*** you have all time in world to spend grinding all day for crap??? most on here do not season 7 is a fun sucking mistake that most likely wont be fixed. that would require common sence and yes work. you want to talk lazy.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,273
# 38
11-18-2012, 08:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
For starters, I freakin LOVE the updates they did to NPCs, the Borg especially. I also love the Tholians on elite. Hence why I find an interesting combination of frustration and amusement when I read all the Borg rage threads here on the forums XD. All the AI updates and weapon updates on elite npcs are great. No more facerolling, actual brain required.
Here is the only place I disagree with you, it's still a DPS race (if not more so because now they have higher resists), and there is no more facerolling... or rather we can't faceroll anymore... the NPCs can now do it better than they could before though, I'm sure you know of those 1 shot kills.... before season 7 I would get 1 every... 5 STFs... maybe, now I get 5 almost every STF I do. I'm fine with harder NPCs, I'm not fine with my tank Oddy (that takes 3 well built ESCORTS in pvp to bring down) being 1 shotted by a tac cube 3 times in an STF! I went back to my Excelsior and cut that down to 1 and that's not every STF.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,642
# 39
11-18-2012, 09:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by captainbrady View Post
Spoken like a PWE sock account. Give my regards to your supervisor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by xantris View Post
I'm missing a paycheck then. Also, you're pathetic. Check my posting history and you'll see I was ranting over dilithium reductions to STFs a couple days ago.
Quote:
Originally Posted by captainbrady View Post
Ah argumentum ad hominem now is it? That's the lamest yet. You're a write off, dismissed out of hand.
Hey, captainbrady, first you give your LENGTHY opinion on season 7. People provide an opposing opinion and you accuse them of being PWE puppet accounts. When that person states they're not PWE you ever-so-righteously dismiss them out of hand.

I dismiss you and your small, feeble, hypocritical mind out if hand. The only times I've seen people dismiss conflicting opinions as you did was when either the original premise was weak enough to not withstand scrutiny or the original premise was provided by a person of limited intellectual faculty. If you're not prepared to have people disagree with your opinion in a forum how about you keep your opinion to yourself.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 125
# 40
11-18-2012, 09:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by darramouss1 View Post
Hey, captainbrady, first you give your LENGTHY opinion on season 7. People provide an opposing opinion and you accuse them of being PWE puppet accounts. When that person states they're not PWE you ever-so-righteously dismiss them out of hand.

I dismiss you and your small, feeble, hypocritical mind out if hand. The only times I've seen people dismiss conflicting opinions as you did was when either the original premise was weak enough to not withstand scrutiny or the original premise was provided by a person of limited intellectual faculty. If you're not prepared to have people disagree with your opinion in a forum how about you keep your opinion to yourself.

I am prepared to have people disagree, but I expect a little more substance than a red herring (not smart to call out the devs), ad hominem attack (i.e. you're lazy, or you're pathetic), or some sort of counter argument based out of thin air. I took a long time to work on the data for my opinion. If you're not willing to put any effort into your counter argument, don't expect me to take you seriously. If you have a thoughtful, rational opinion, then I will take you seriously. If you're going to call me names or use some other logical fallacy, I'm going to ignore you or dismiss you out of hand. No I'm afraid not all opinions are equal or equal of respect. T he flat earth society opinion doesn't deserve my resepct. The "oh yeah, you're a lazy doodie face" argument doesn't deserve my respect. Do you have an understanding of what I intend to say? There are rules for debating, I suggest you read up on them.

Last edited by captainbrady; 11-18-2012 at 09:31 AM.
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