Lt. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 165
# 11
11-19-2012, 07:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by defalus View Post
The Federation is at war, if they didn't move into to Romulan space it would be wide open for the Klingon Empire to take. It's been shown several times before on TV how far Starfleet is willing to go, the ends justify the means.
The federation is NOT at war with the romulan govenment, as there is not esablished Romulan govenment. They are trying to MAKE a Romulan govenment, in dire violation of the prime directive. It's the kind of behaviour you'd expect from Romulans, but not the Federation!

The end? Who can predict the end? If the Tal Shiar is stronger than the provintial government, Starfleet may have committed to support a minor faction in a civil war! To what end? To lead the Romulan people into opression by a Federation-supported military dictatorship. Does this sound like something worth killing refugees over?

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainrevo1 View Post
They are not attacking the refugees, they are attacking the Tal Shiar.
And when the Tal Shiar home planet is destroyed (yes, it's their home too), they are not entitled to refugee status?

Quote:
Originally Posted by trek21 View Post
Pvehero, Kirk made a career off interfereing off every planet they visited Sure some were for the best, but some were not

The Prime Directive's been violated a lot, and not just by him... at this point, it's one of those few-times-enforced laws that only some pay attention to. Sure Star Trek's message is what you said, but there is a lot of interfering by Starfleet as well.
Kirks interpretation of the PD was... creative at best, still he held it to be the highest principal to guide us.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Memory Alpha
The Prime Directive was viewed as so fundamental to Starfleet that officers swore to uphold the Prime Directive, even at the cost of their own life or the lives of their crew. (TOS: "Bread and Circuses", "A Piece of the Action"; VOY: "Course: Oblivion")
Quote:
Originally Posted by Picard
the Prime Directive is not just a set of rules. It is a philosophy, and a very correct one.

oh...
Quote:
Originally Posted by timelord79 View Post
I agree with CaptainRevo.

What those preemptive strikes refer to are the missions you played previously during the Romulan Front.
Not in a single instance those strikes where against civilian refugees. On the contrary, there is e mission "Friend of my Enemy" where we do the exact opposite, and which can be seen as a precurser to New Romulus, and help a colony of Romulan refugees against a Reman induced bioweapon.


What see what the preemtive strikes are exactly,you should check the missions"Divide et Impera", "Preemptive Strike" (shocking, isn't it? ), "By Any Means", "Taris", "S'hariens Swords" and most of "Cloaked Intentions".

Some of those are legitimate, some are questionable or even regrettable. But Starfleet treats these as a "what's done is done" deal and tries it's best to correct those mistakes now with the help for an entirely new faction within the Empire, namely those civilian refugees.
It's so nice of you to refer to these missions, where WE, as Captains, were forced and tricked into violating the prime directive severely, by an Undine infiltrator! I distinctly remember masacring a romulan research station because I was told they were hiding illegal weapons.... Yes, we killed them all, researches and cleaning personel. I was cringing when being forced though that outrage as well.

As for civilian, if there is no legit government, there can be no military. Para-military civilians at best. Even the Tal Shiar are a group of civilians working towards their own goal. Well armed civilianc, yes, and well organized, but still civilians!

Last edited by pvehero; 11-19-2012 at 07:18 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,325
# 12
11-19-2012, 07:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pvehero View Post
Now first of all... we are talking about refugees from the Romulan homeworld. Groups of survivors trying to rebuild their lives and society. Starfleet approaches them, offering to help.... Starfleet... their sworn enemy! That they have been taught from the cradle are the most vile and untrustworthy creatures in the universe... Would YOU expect them to accept "help"?

So they refuse. And WHAT does Starfleet do? Against fleeing refugees? Preemptive strikes!!! To stop the Romulan refugees from rebuilding their society like they want!
It's not helpless refugees we were fighting...it's invasion fleets sent by Empress Sela and the Tal Shiar. Play "Preemptive Strike" -- that fleet was intended to invade the Federation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pvehero View Post
As for civilian, if there is no legit government, there can be no military. Para-military civilians at best. Even the Tal Shiar are a group of civilians working towards their own goal.
There is a legitimate government: Sela's.

And even if there weren't...illegitimate militaries can still be dangerous. In fact, they're probably more dangerous.

Last edited by psycoticvulcan; 11-19-2012 at 07:19 AM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 208
# 13
11-19-2012, 07:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pvehero View Post
This is the exact opposite of everything Trek is supposed to be about. Accepting other species, cultures and ways of thinking.
Since TNG, anyway. In TOS Starfleet was still very much the morality police.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 165
# 14
11-19-2012, 07:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycoticvulcan View Post
There is a legitimate government: Sela's.

And even if there weren't...illegitimate militaries can still be dangerous. In fact, they're probably more dangerous.
Aha, so we're helping setting up a rebellion? Playing one faction agains another in an internal power struggle? Well THAT'S certainly not in violation of the Prime Directive...

BTW: Sela has disappeared, and there is no ruling body.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Picard
Who the hell are we to determine the next course of evolution for these people?
Quote:
Originally Posted by evendzhar View Post
Since TNG, anyway. In TOS Starfleet was still very much the morality police.
Yup, a product of the time it was written.
Career Officer
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 953
# 15
11-19-2012, 07:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycoticvulcan View Post
It's not helpless refugees we were fighting...it's invasion fleets sent by Empress Sela and the Tal Shiar. Play "Preemptive Strike" -- that fleet was intended to invade the Federation.



There is a legitimate government: Sela's.

And even if there weren't...illegitimate militaries can still be dangerous. In fact, they're probably more dangerous.
Sela's isn't legitimate, it's not supported by the majority of Romulans and it's not recognized by either the Klingon Empire or the Federation.

And regardless the Federation has in this game serially broken the Prime Directive, to what end? Lets not even start about the butchering of Salt Vampires (an endangered species) when all they had to do was beam down large vats of salt ... though I admit that would have been a less fun mission :p
Commander
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 286
# 16 just a game
11-19-2012, 07:25 AM
ummm...you all do realize this is just a game...based on a FICTIONAL tv series, right? at least i hope everyone realizes this. don't get me wrong, i've been a trek fan from the start of the original series, but c'mon. it's funny, the other day i was telling my brother that there are people on here that take this game wwwwaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyy too seriously. well, now i have proof and i will be directing him to this thread. and i really don't mean to insult anyone, i really honestly don't, but if a GAME based on, as i said above, a FICTIONAL tv series makes you "cringe" and feel "sick to your stomach", well, i'll just say someone has some issues and someone needs some help.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 165
# 17
11-19-2012, 07:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thisisoverlord View Post
Lets not even start about the butchering of Salt Vampires (an endangered species) when all they had to do was beam down large vats of salt ... though I admit that would have been a less fun mission :p
I bet they would have had us Armirals move the salt manually with shovels and wheelbarrels. Apparently, assigning manual labour to Admirals is perfectly normal... ;D
Career Officer
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 953
# 18
11-19-2012, 07:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschooldork View Post
ummm...you all do realize this is just a game...based on a FICTIONAL tv series, right? at least i hope everyone realizes this. don't get me wrong, i've been a trek fan from the start of the original series, but c'mon. it's funny, the other day i was telling my brother that there are people on here that take this game wwwwaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyy too seriously. well, now i have proof and i will be directing him to this thread. and i really don't mean to insult anyone, i really honestly don't, but if a GAME based on, as i said above, a FICTIONAL tv series makes you "cringe" and feel "sick to your stomach", well, i'll just say someone has some issues and someone needs some help.
Oh dear...

and if the TV series or films were just one scene of butchery and conquest after another it wouldn't be Star Trek and you wouldn't be fan. So no anything that detracts from the Star Trek feel is something worth considering as a concern.
Career Officer
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 953
# 19
11-19-2012, 07:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pvehero View Post
I bet they would have had us Armirals move the salt manually with shovels and wheelbarrels. Apparently, assigning manual labour to Admirals is perfectly normal... ;D
Ahah no doubt we'd have to mine/collect the salt too!
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,514
# 20
11-19-2012, 07:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pvehero View Post
It's so nice of you to refer to these missions, where WE, as Captains, were forced and tricked into violating the prime directive severely, by an Undine infiltrator! I distinctly remember masacring a romulan research station because I was told they were hiding illegal weapons.... Yes, we killed them all, researches and cleaning personel. I was cringing when being forced though that outrage as well.

As for civilian, if there is no legit government, there can be no military. Para-military civilians at best. Even the Tal Shiar are a group of civilians working towards their own goal. Well armed civilianc, yes, and well organized, but still civilians!
Is the only part of my post that you read the ONE episode title where your arguments hold any water? That was the point of the episode. That we made a MISTAKE. It was not the best designed story mission, as most of us could see the twist coming a mile away, I know.

But what about all these other episdes I quoted. Where you disgusted by them? And personally I haven't encountered a single mission where our task is to instate a new goverment for the Romulan Empire.
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