Lt. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 165
# 21
11-19-2012, 06:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschooldork View Post
ummm...you all do realize this is just a game...based on a FICTIONAL tv series, right? at least i hope everyone realizes this. don't get me wrong, i've been a trek fan from the start of the original series, but c'mon. it's funny, the other day i was telling my brother that there are people on here that take this game wwwwaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyy too seriously. well, now i have proof and i will be directing him to this thread. and i really don't mean to insult anyone, i really honestly don't, but if a GAME based on, as i said above, a FICTIONAL tv series makes you "cringe" and feel "sick to your stomach", well, i'll just say someone has some issues and someone needs some help.
Star Trek is fiction. It's a dream of a world where people have understood the difference of right and wrong. Now if you're going to build on that dream, you better get it straight!

This... is like painintg a moustache on the Mona Lisa...
Career Officer
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 953
# 22
11-19-2012, 06:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by timelord79 View Post
Is the only part of my post that you read the ONE episode title where your arguments hold any water? That was the point of the episode. That we made a MISTAKE. It was not the best designed story mission, as most of us could see the twist coming a mile away, I know.

But what about all these other episdes I quoted. Where you disgusted by them? And personally I haven't encountered a single mission where our task is to instate a new goverment for the Romulan Empire.
Oh come on, the Bajorans and the Maquis never got the kind of treatment these Romulans are, they couldn't be helped, the Bajorans formally asked for federation assistance and where turned down they had to fight for their own freedom.

As for the Maquis they were disowned
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,554
# 23
11-19-2012, 06:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by timelord79 View Post
Some of those are legitimate, some are questionable or even regrettable.
The most questionable one and only one that would violate traditional laws of war was made on bad intelligence fed by a spy, too. After that, the next most questionable one would probably be Sharien's Swords, and it's much harder to argue against it after the fact considering what was found. All others were known military threats with immediate hostile intentions towards the Federation.

A few other notes on the Prime Directive here:
Quote:
And when the Tal Shiar home planet is destroyed (yes, it's their home too), they are not entitled to refugee status?
No. Because, and black text for spoilers on the Hobus mission: They destroyed it. There has been evidence to the effect for decades, but Starfleet produced the proof in Ground Zero.

Quote:
As for civilian, if there is no legit government, there can be no military. Para-military civilians at best. Even the Tal Shiar are a group of civilians working towards their own goal.
This is not true. Military does not require government, and our own world has several examples of countries with military power and no legitimate government, militaries not under government control, and militaries which claim to be legitimate governments.

All that's required to be a true military is uniform. And lacking uniform but still engaging in military activity doesn't make you a paramilitary, it makes you a terrorist. And even Picard used threats of force before negotiation with terrorists.
Career Officer
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 953
# 24
11-19-2012, 06:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hevach View Post


No. Because, and black text for spoilers on the Hobus mission:
This is totally wrong: If the Nausicaans destroyed their home planet due to pollution... and asked for Federation help and to be classed as refugees they would.



Quote:
Originally Posted by hevach View Post
This is not true. Military does not require government, and our own world has several examples of countries with military power and no legitimate government, militaries not under government control, and militaries which claim to be legitimate governments.

All that's required to be a true military is uniform. And lacking uniform but still engaging in military activity doesn't make you a paramilitary, it makes you a terrorist. And even Picard used threats of force before negotiation with terrorists.
Wrong, wrong and wrong again.

A military must exist as a legal entity. There must be a mandate and charter. Any force without such legality and legitimacy is paramilitary.

Quote:
A paramilitary is a military-esque force whose function and organization are similar to those of a professional military, but which is not considered part of a state's formal armed forces.
Please get your facts straight.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,412
# 25
11-19-2012, 06:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thisisoverlord View Post
Oh come on, the Bajorans and the Maquis never got the kind of treatment these Romulans are, they couldn't be helped, the Bajorans formally asked for federation assistance and where turned down they had to fight for their own freedom.

As for the Maquis they were disowned
The problem with the Bajorans was more complicated and definitely not a black and white situation.

There were existing treaties with the Cardassians that prevented them to get involved as at that time the Bajorans were recognized subjects of the Cardassian Empire, officially at least, and helping them would have brought about a new war for sure that would have caused much more casualties.
You couldn't throw out the Cardassians from Bajoran space and their planet, they were entrenched far too deep.
The Bajoran "official" goverment (which was a puppet goverment) never asked for help from the Federation and as far as i know the Resistance leaders never did as well.
Even AFTER the Cardassians left and the Federation was in a position to help and did so, the Bajorans were for the most part still distrustful and didn't want the help because they were too proud and feared another Federation led occupation instead of the Cardassian one.
When the Bajoran goverment asked the Federation to leave (during the Circle trilogy), they obliged. Except for a small group oef people led by Sisko who lay down his uniform for the time to prove the conspiracy and illegitimacy of those actions.

Now the current situation is STO:

There are no treaties that prevent any involvement of the Federation with the New Romulus colony.
They are recognized as a sovereign state apart from the Romulan Empire by the two major factions in game, Federation AND Klingon Empire.
The Romulan Empire has no presence in any form apart from some Tal Shiar spies which try to influence the colonies leaders and gather intel.
D'Tan the recognized leader has asked Federation and Klingon Empire for humanitarian help, which the Federation gladly provides (in part to make up for some past mistakes like Dividie et Empera) and the Klingons do so as well (for whatever reason).
The new ROmulus colony is warp capable and has officially asked for help. The Prime Directive does not apply.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,888
# 26
11-19-2012, 06:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pvehero View Post
And when the Tal Shiar home planet is destroyed (yes, it's their home too), they are not entitled to refugee status?
You are ignoring the fact that they are the ones causing all the trouble. they have weapons and warships at their disposal.

they are attacking your ships, killing the remans, and even subjugating and experimenting on their own people.

they hunted and slaughtered the reman resistances family, hakeev tried to have you killed, they were running experiments that created those salt vampire things from the new mission, they are working with the iconians who who knows what. these are not friendly, innocent people.

you are not just killing random romulans because its fun, you are attacking the ones causing the problems in the region. yes it creates moral questions of 'do we have the right to deal with other empires problems' but if those problems threaten the security of the federation and its people then sometimes serious action has to be taken.

you say picard would not approve. he was the one how violated cardassian space to stop them from developing that bio weapon in chain of command. they would potentially have to kill cardassians to stop a greater threat, yet he did it.

House of Cards - Lvl 46 Fed mission
Career Officer
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 953
# 27
11-19-2012, 06:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by timelord79 View Post

There are no treaties that prevent any involvement of the Federation with the New Romulus colony.
They are recognized as a sovereign state apart from the Romulan Empire by the two major factions in game, Federation AND Klingon Empire.
The Romulan Empire has no presence in any form apart from some Tal Shiar spies which try to influence the colonies leaders and gather intel.
D'Tan the recognized leader has asked Federation and Klingon Empire for humanitarian help, which the Federation gladly provides (in part to make up for some past mistakes like Dividie et Empera) and the Klingons do so as well (for whatever reason).
The new ROmulus colony is warp capable and has officially asked for help. The Prime Directive does not apply.
Wrong again.

New Romulus is populated by Romulan Refugees which are just one very small part of their species. The do not speak for all Romulans and as you have said are a colony, not an official state, nor government. If this colony was to do as previous colonies had tried to do and take over groups of Romulans into their power by force that would implicate the Federation in a very immoral practice.

Therefore the Federation would never have countenanced such intervention because of the potential disasters that could become of doing so.

This is one colony... and we've already begun exterminating endangered species (Salt Vampires) for no good reason at all in the name of helping one isolated Romulan Colony.

As for the Klingon Empire, they should be aggressively taking the territory that once belonged to the Romulan Empire... not tagging Pig-Bunnies.

Last edited by thisisoverlord; 11-19-2012 at 06:59 AM.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 39
# 28
11-19-2012, 07:07 AM
Wow did you guys even READ the dialog boxes for the entire reman storylines?? the refugees DID ask for starfleet help! Darn near Begged! if it wasn't' for YOU deciding to help (to further the missions) Starfleet wouldn't have acted at all. YOU, The captain, got Starfleet involved by giving aid to the refugees that asked for help. THAT IS CANON!!! that's happened on several TGN, DS9, and Voyager episodes. Its is not going against the prime directive, in fact, its doing the very thing Starfleet was designed to do, Shelter and protect the innocent when they have formally asked for it.

Like it or not, there is nothing wrong here except the wording of that particular dialog.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,412
# 29
11-19-2012, 07:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thisisoverlord View Post
Wrong again.

New Romulus is populated by Romulan Refugees which are just one very small part of their species. The do not speak for all Romulans and as you have said are a colony, not an official state, nor government. If this colony was to do as previous colonies had tried to do and take over groups of Romulans into their power by force that would implicate the Federation in a very immoral practice.

Therefore the Federation would never have countenanced such intervention because of the potential disasters that could become of doing so.

This is one colony... and we've already begun exterminating endangered species (Salt Vampires) for no good reason at all in the name of helping one isolated Romulan Colony.

As for the Klingon Empire, they should be aggressively taking the territory that once belonged to the Romulan Empire... not tagging Pig-Bunnies.
They are a small part of their species and they never said they wanted to speak for all Romulans.
They are open to take in any Romulan Refugee who wants a new beginning, but they don't force anyone.
They make it a point to stand apart from what is left of the Romulan Empire. They are political refugees, not disaster refugees, since the Romulan Empire has established a new homeworld on Rator already. They could live there if they were ok with political oppression by the Tal Shiar and formerly Sela's dictatorship.

The salt vampire mission, btw, has nothing to do with New Romulus. That mission takes place on Hfihar, at the mining colony we visited during Cloaked Intentions.
D'Tan is using diplomatic channels and has established that they are independent and open to humanitarian aid.
please point me to the dialog or cutscene that states otherwise and they are in fact still subjects of the Romulan Empire.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,764
# 30
11-19-2012, 07:17 AM
Firstly, let me say how much I love this debate. It exists because Starfleet has been shown to be so diverse. Different captains make different choices, and in the end, we have what we have today.

Picard will always be Picard, the optimist, pacifist, and idealist that we all aspire to. We may not make the same compromises as Sisko, but we will make some, simply because we are mortal, and we struggle to make the best choice for the best outcomes.

Don't get me wrong, I think the Prime Directive is an ideal we all as Starfleet officers should and must aspire to. But it has its time and place, because ultimately, it is the safety of the greater good that must upheld.

There will be exceptions, and exceptions to the exceptions, and many many more angry voices for all sides. That's just our opinion, and how we react when put in that situation.

What there should be however, is an option to skip certain missions we find distasteful! That would be a nice feature when planning story progression.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lt. Comm. Pion
What should I wish upon the endless universe;
To be able to smile and forgive everything;
That's right, if we light up the dream in our hearts without averting our eyes;
We should be able to walk whatever tomorrow comes...

I am V. Adm. Kha Yuung, and I approve of this message.
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