Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 798
# 11
11-18-2012, 09:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by xsharpex View Post
with respect, my kar'fi does it's fair share of damage on its own. without the adv frigates, it can do 5-6k. with the frigates, it does 10-11k. i don't have the exact numbers. i must state that my kar'fi is fully geared and is a specialty build. so i am an outlier. much like the escort that can bang out 11k dps on his own, or the dps tank cruiser.

any idiot can step into an escort and bang out 6-7k dps. learning to fly the other craft takes time and skill. you won't be doing amazing burst damage, but you'll be playing a role that needs to be played. a good pvp team does not merely consist of all tac/escorts. they have a variety. so before you go and try to cop out the easy way, hoping these little fighters and whatnot do your work for you, why not re-assess your build to see if you can juice it up further? if you want hanger slots, fly a carrier.
Yea, about that... before I even FINISHED my build, before we even knew the Chimera existed... with only APO3, APA, TT, C:RF2 and T:HY2, I was getting 22k. Without those, I'm STILL getting over 10k. Fully buffed, I can probably get near 30k now (especially now that I have the Chimera, with its Spinal Lance FAW).

Quote:
Originally Posted by somrik View Post
Now Now I think he has a point. Escorts can do their cycle and go "What enemies?" but Carriers and the like have a bit more survivability than Escorts do.

That said I do like the expanded hanger slots.

Though I would say Existing Carriers expand to one more slot(for a total of 3 not 4). All else gets a hanger that can equip shuttles or To'Duj fighters(Klingons.) I cant see science or cruisers on the fed side carrying fighters as much as that would make sense gameplay wise. Shuttles are already pretty strong in their own right.

The extra Carrier slot would also only be able to equip small craft(Shuttles/Fighters). My B'rel and B'rolth already chew up enemies adding 4 more to that would just make it a virtually unstoppable juggernaut.

How to balance that with the Atrox's 2(3 with the proposed change) bays I would know. You already habve 12 stalkers. Adding another bay you'll have 18 fighters. They dont do much damage but its a death by a thousand cuts(that plus the thoron does about 2-3k at least thats what I see on teh Nanite generators)

And just as an aside not so serious suggestion:

Do you think FEDs should get a frigate equivalent to launch? Klinks get BoPs and Karfi Frigates. Should Feds get something like that? What would even be? Whats the equivalent?

A defiant?(Lol say hello to 4 defiants coming at you.)

Maybe just Sabers.

I dunno.
I actually considered just going with 3, not long after I posted this. Fact is, xsharpex's premise may be flawed, but he has a decent point. So many fighters MIGHT be a bit powerful.
As for Fed Frigate pets... I don't think so. Defiants (and even Mirandas) are a LITTLE big for hangar pets. I'd say, if you wanted something like that, launch Aquarius Destroyers. They're small enough to be more believable, and they've got good damage.
CHARACTER GRID (@Lord-Ice):
___ |___ _ Fed ____| ____ _KDF __ ____| Rom
Tac_|_Thomas Hale_| __ __Illusion _____| Silence (K)
Eng | ___Antilles _ _| _ Mirror Rygobeth__| N'Vek (F)
Sci _| __ Rygobeth _| _Lukor Son of Q'Tar | Devala (F)
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 262
# 12
11-18-2012, 03:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by icegavel View Post
Yea, about that... before I even FINISHED my build, before we even knew the Chimera existed... with only APO3, APA, TT, C:RF2 and T:HY2, I was getting 22k. Without those, I'm STILL getting over 10k. Fully buffed, I can probably get near 30k now (especially now that I have the Chimera, with its Spinal Lance FAW).



I actually considered just going with 3, not long after I posted this. Fact is, xsharpex's premise may be flawed, but he has a decent point. So many fighters MIGHT be a bit powerful.
As for Fed Frigate pets... I don't think so. Defiants (and even Mirandas) are a LITTLE big for hangar pets. I'd say, if you wanted something like that, launch Aquarius Destroyers. They're small enough to be more believable, and they've got good damage.
lol. you might be able to burst for 30k, but it doesn't mean you'll be able to sustain it. and if my "premise" is flawed, then tell me. would 8x heavy tricobalt torpedos not be considered stupidly overpowered? how about all the tricobalt mines they'll produce? let alone having them all fire at you with antiproton cannons. i know i can sustain stupid amounts of dps over any amount of time.

even if it weren't overpowered. think about the gamebreaking possibility. 5x carriers on a team, each equipped with 24 fighters, launching 24 torpedos. 120 fighters and 120 torpedos. or how about siphon drones? those suicide guys that ram your hull? imagine all the tractor beams. so tell me, how is my premise flawed?
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 798
# 13
11-18-2012, 08:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by xsharpex View Post
lol. you might be able to burst for 30k, but it doesn't mean you'll be able to sustain it. and if my "premise" is flawed, then tell me. would 8x heavy tricobalt torpedos not be considered stupidly overpowered? how about all the tricobalt mines they'll produce? let alone having them all fire at you with antiproton cannons. i know i can sustain stupid amounts of dps over any amount of time.

even if it weren't overpowered. think about the gamebreaking possibility. 5x carriers on a team, each equipped with 24 fighters, launching 24 torpedos. 120 fighters and 120 torpedos. or how about siphon drones? those suicide guys that ram your hull? imagine all the tractor beams. so tell me, how is my premise flawed?
Your premise is flawed very simply:

B:FAW. Scatter Volley. Torp Spread. Photonic Shockwave. Warp Plasma. If someone REALLY wanted to they could probably negate every torpedo, every mine, and probably kill MOST frigates. A team with a good coordination won't have any trouble with any of that (A smart Escort with Warp Plasma fools frigates into chasing, EWP. No torpedoes incoming, frigates are all but stopped and at the mersy of Scatter Volley/Torp Spread. GG). After that, all you have is five VERY slow vessels. I'm not saying it's not powerful, but it's not as strong as you think. Unless they made frigates, mines, and torpedoes permanently immune to all damage. Which they haven't. The frigates barely have phase shift.
CHARACTER GRID (@Lord-Ice):
___ |___ _ Fed ____| ____ _KDF __ ____| Rom
Tac_|_Thomas Hale_| __ __Illusion _____| Silence (K)
Eng | ___Antilles _ _| _ Mirror Rygobeth__| N'Vek (F)
Sci _| __ Rygobeth _| _Lukor Son of Q'Tar | Devala (F)
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 765
# 14
11-18-2012, 11:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by icegavel View Post
For quite a long time now, DPS has been the effective King of Games, at least in STO. May the STF Fairies have mercy on your soul if you're not a Tactical officer specced into a DP-Escort. This is partially due to the fact that, really, no other ship is quite as effective. Even done PROPERLY, tanks have the equivalent firepower of a pellet rifle, and science vessels aren't much better off. They don't have the damage to be really effective, and their niche rolls are far too niche (tanks can't even really tank, an Elite Cube will still eat you alive and spit out the redshirts, and science vessels with stopping power are only useful for half of each STF). Overall, if you don't mind exploding a little (Escorts can even avoid this much of the time; but, if they don't it means nothing, there's no really threatening death penalty in this game), you go for a DP-Escort.

I don't like that. Not that DP-Escorts aren't fun, but there needs to be VARIETY in play styles. Other ships and builds need an edge, a buff. The Vesta is the perfect example of what that buff is, and it's not hard to conceive... it has a hangar.

So, what I have is really quite simple: If a ship is not a small craft, an Escort, or a Bird-of-Prey, it gets a hangar. Science Vessels/Raptors get one, Cruisers get two, and existing carriers get double what they have (except the Armitage - It only gets one more slot. It always felt like a half-cruiser half-Escort, especially since it has a Lt. Cmdr. Engineering slot and 4 Tac/3 Eng for consoles). This means that ships with a decent turn rate and damage potential get a smaller damage/control boosts, and those ships with horrible turn rates and all the damage of throwing bologna at an M1-A1 Abrams get more support craft. Meanwhile, existing carriers can make up for their utter lack of damage with small armies of fighters (up to 24). This means ships without damage get damage, and those ships WITH damage don't dominate the field like a Snorlax sitting in the middle of a road. This would be explained very easily: Science Vessels have only ever had one shuttlebay, whereas cruisers have several.

And, for those of you that are reading this and screaming "The Vesta Hangar is supposed to be SPECIAL," the simple fact of the matter is, the Vesta is special already. It has the fastest Slipstream, DHCs that don't use weapon power, AoE heals, super-phasers, Torpedo Feedback Pulse, 10 Console Slots each, and a mother-loving PERFECT SHIELD. That little runt of a Sovereign is special enough without being the only Science Vessel with a hangar. This is the best way, short of nerfing DPS to hell and creation, of balancing ship types.
Interesting suggestion. I believe the idea has definite potential.
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 262
# 15
11-19-2012, 06:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by icegavel View Post
Your premise is flawed very simply:

B:FAW. Scatter Volley. Torp Spread. Photonic Shockwave. Warp Plasma. If someone REALLY wanted to they could probably negate every torpedo, every mine, and probably kill MOST frigates. A team with a good coordination won't have any trouble with any of that (A smart Escort with Warp Plasma fools frigates into chasing, EWP. No torpedoes incoming, frigates are all but stopped and at the mersy of Scatter Volley/Torp Spread. GG). After that, all you have is five VERY slow vessels. I'm not saying it's not powerful, but it's not as strong as you think. Unless they made frigates, mines, and torpedoes permanently immune to all damage. Which they haven't. The frigates barely have phase shift.
LOL. you pugstar wannabee. you obviously have no idea what the hell you're talking about, so let me spell it out for you. in pve: it'll be incredibly gamebreaking because there are no enemies that use any combination of the skills you listed above. thus teams would steam roll through all pve content with no difficulty whatsoever. in pvp: most dedicated pvp'ers will till you that team play focuses on single target acquisiton and elimination. control, hold, debuff and focus fire for elimination.

and don't take my word for it. i hereby submit the following for review.
exhibit A
exhibit B

so, as my kar'fi is firing on you and draining your energy with my polaron weapons and plasmonic leech all the while dropping aceton assimilators and sucking your ship's power dry, opening you up to being held by either gw3 or energy siphon 3 or viral matrix 3. while currently 4 (or 8 as you propose) advanced frigates bombard your ship with tricobalt torpedos, dual antiproton cannons and other assorted goodies... tell me still how my premise is flawed?

you want real balance pass?

fix sci powers so pure sci ships aren't garbage. with inherent abilities like sensor analysis that can boost one's damage up to 30+% and target subsystems which can act like a huge nuisance if specced correctly, sci ships with their high shield modifier can be deadly. if the skills they relied on were fixed.

fix cruisers so beam arrays themselves weren't so damn useless. a tac in a cruiser, if built correctly, can hold their own. an engi or sci in a cruiser are there mainly as support. that's the bottom line. you're not going to be putting out massive dps like an escort. your job is to take the aggro, be able to tank like no tomorrow and put out continual dps over time.

tl;dr: your idea for hangers as a balance pass is asinine. please see the video for references as to how fighters/frigates/etc can easily be abused. carriers with hangers are big, slow and sluggish for a reason. i think it's time for you to go back to the drawing board to try to find another way to lazily boost your dps. i hope the next time, you'll take the hint and drop the issue before someone else completely rips your idea and drags it through the mud. but yeah, thanks for playing. it's been fun.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,338
# 16
11-19-2012, 07:00 AM
Instead of more spam, they should finally instate that first officer slot. Where you can further define the role of your ship.

Although instead of ADDING more power it should replace something.

Maybe the commander station should always have been a universal First Officer station and the LC station the one to determine the ships flavour?

That way we could have DPS heavy cruisers and sci ships. Or tankable escorts and sci ships. Or debuffing escorts and cruisers. All with their pros and cons.
Survivor of Remus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 242
# 17
11-19-2012, 07:22 AM
This post is out dated or just wrong. I fly sci sci in a wells and end up out dosing or falling right behind the escorts on my team. What you need is to get a good build and I've seen cruisers solo a tac cube no issues. But me and my fleet build for pvp so it a little easier for us. I think the balance is fine.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 39
# 18
11-19-2012, 07:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by somrik View Post
Do you think FEDs should get a frigate equivalent to launch? Klinks get BoPs and Karfi Frigates. Should Feds get something like that? What would even be? Whats the equivalent?

A defiant?(Lol say hello to 4 defiants coming at you.)

Maybe just Sabers.

I dunno.
Actually, the B'rel used by the Klingon Carrier would actually be equal to a base fed escort (the LT COMM ones i.e. Saber, rapier, Ushaan) and the next step up would be the C-Store version (Gladius Class) with default weapons and special console.

they are SMALLER is size to the B'rel so adding a wing of 2 per bay is reasonable and, imo, If the devs are going to clone every thing that only the klingons had to the fed side, might as well do this too.

Last edited by vikingraider; 11-19-2012 at 07:31 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,462
# 19
11-19-2012, 08:49 AM
I would rather the Feds get a pet that is a mix of combat and team support as being more "in character" for them. Like a pet that has 2 beam arrays and a photon launcher, and then instead of having offensive tactical abilities like the KDF Birds of Prey or massive weapons like the Kar'fi's frigates, the fed frigate can use Engineering Team and Extend Shields on allied players .

But if they can't get something like that, clearly they should get the Aquarius.

Though, my fed-side carrier is a Recluse and given their track record with frigates they'd make it tied to a specific ship so it wouldn't help me at all.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 798
# 20
11-19-2012, 03:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by timelord79 View Post
Instead of more spam, they should finally instate that first officer slot. Where you can further define the role of your ship.
Although instead of ADDING more power it should replace something.
Maybe the commander station should always have been a universal First Officer station and the LC station the one to determine the ships flavour?
That way we could have DPS heavy cruisers and sci ships. Or tankable escorts and sci ships. Or debuffing escorts and cruisers. All with their pros and cons.
That won't change much of anything, really. Yea, it'll give some versatility. But DP-Escorts will still pretty much rule the roost. The other classes just aren't capable of that kind of firepower, regardless of BOff slots.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfpack12c View Post
This post is out dated or just wrong. I fly sci sci in a wells and end up out dosing or falling right behind the escorts on my team. What you need is to get a good build and I've seen cruisers solo a tac cube no issues. But me and my fleet build for pvp so it a little easier for us. I think the balance is fine.
This post is "dated" three days ago. This is recent. I've also seen cruisers solo a Tac Cube. It's called Normal difficulty. With a good build in Normal, you need not lift so much as a finger.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xsharpex View Post
LOL. you pugstar wannabee. you obviously have no idea what the hell you're talking about, so let me spell it out for you. in pve: it'll be incredibly gamebreaking because there are no enemies that use any combination of the skills you listed above. thus teams would steam roll through all pve content with no difficulty whatsoever. in pvp: most dedicated pvp'ers will till you that team play focuses on single target acquisiton and elimination. control, hold, debuff and focus fire for elimination.

and don't take my word for it. i hereby submit the following for review.
exhibit A
exhibit B

so, as my kar'fi is firing on you and draining your energy with my polaron weapons and plasmonic leech all the while dropping aceton assimilators and sucking your ship's power dry, opening you up to being held by either gw3 or energy siphon 3 or viral matrix 3. while currently 4 (or 8 as you propose) advanced frigates bombard your ship with tricobalt torpedos, dual antiproton cannons and other assorted goodies... tell me still how my premise is flawed?

you want real balance pass?

fix sci powers so pure sci ships aren't garbage. with inherent abilities like sensor analysis that can boost one's damage up to 30+% and target subsystems which can act like a huge nuisance if specced correctly, sci ships with their high shield modifier can be deadly. if the skills they relied on were fixed.

fix cruisers so beam arrays themselves weren't so damn useless. a tac in a cruiser, if built correctly, can hold their own. an engi or sci in a cruiser are there mainly as support. that's the bottom line. you're not going to be putting out massive dps like an escort. your job is to take the aggro, be able to tank like no tomorrow and put out continual dps over time.

tl;dr: your idea for hangers as a balance pass is asinine. please see the video for references as to how fighters/frigates/etc can easily be abused. carriers with hangers are big, slow and sluggish for a reason. i think it's time for you to go back to the drawing board to try to find another way to lazily boost your dps. i hope the next time, you'll take the hint and drop the issue before someone else completely rips your idea and drags it through the mud. but yeah, thanks for playing. it's been fun.
And so the fun begins. Let me rip apart your argument, one half-witted case after another.
First off, let's start with your nearly-insulting quip about PvE and PvP. Have you ever been on a team with 5 Escorts in an STF? You're in and out in 5 minutes. DP-Escorts are ALREADY game-breaking. In PvP, it's ALMOST the same. "Target Acquisition and Elimination" is what DP-Escorts EXCEL at. Your own argument defeats itself.
Second is your NEXT self-defeating argument: Your videos. Exhibit A might as well be a point in MY favor. The idiot has mines and a dual beam, and NO AoE. He wasn't BUILT to fight carriers. Exhibit B is a premade vs a PUG. The enemy team was half-Cruiser, there wasn't NEARLY enough AoE against the fighters, and the enemy team ran around like chickens with their heads cut off. That video proves nothing, other than the fact that premades crush PUGs, which is already an established fact.
Third up is your bit on power drain. I've got bad news for you... half those abilities don't stack. It even says in the Energy Siphon tooltip that it doesn't stack with the others. Gravity Well 3 isn't a perma-stuck, either. As holds go, it's pretty weak, actually. Only really good in PvE for mass-killing frigates (OH wait, wasn't that what I was saying?). VM can be cleared by Science Team, Tractor beams can be resisted by Polarize Hull, etc. Most/all of those counters are pretty standard for any build. Well, the SHOULD be pretty standard, at any rate.
On the topic of cruisers, you'd be surprised what those Engineer Cruisers can do with the right buffs. But, you're right about their damage (not that it helps your case any, I suggested what I did to increase their damage output in the first place). A cruiser's damage, regardless of who's flying it, has all the damage of walking out the airlock and throwing deli meat at the enemy. Giving them fighters is designed to fix that VERY issue.
I'll give you kudos only on your Science Ship bit, but you're partially wrong even there: It's hard for anything with a 2 minute cooldown to be a nuisance (innate subsystem targeting).
Onto your tl;dr, when you say "tears your idea apart and drags it through the mud", do you mean like what I just did to your case? The only reason I didn't call your post out for flaming/trolling is because I didn't want a forum mod to be forced to read that crap. I've been playing this game for a LONG time now, I'm pretty sure I'd know how it works by now.
CHARACTER GRID (@Lord-Ice):
___ |___ _ Fed ____| ____ _KDF __ ____| Rom
Tac_|_Thomas Hale_| __ __Illusion _____| Silence (K)
Eng | ___Antilles _ _| _ Mirror Rygobeth__| N'Vek (F)
Sci _| __ Rygobeth _| _Lukor Son of Q'Tar | Devala (F)
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