Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,327
# 41
11-19-2012, 09:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by solidneutronium View Post
Picard is no saint. First Contact is the best example. We see him overthrow a legitimate government to advance his own agenda. The line must be drawn here....
Yeah, and I'm a tribble.

(Or were you being sarcastic?)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 165
# 42
11-19-2012, 11:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vikingraider View Post
Wow did you guys even READ the dialog boxes for the entire reman storylines?? the refugees DID ask for starfleet help! Darn near Begged! if it wasn't' for YOU deciding to help (to further the missions) Starfleet wouldn't have acted at all. YOU, The captain, got Starfleet involved by giving aid to the refugees that asked for help. THAT IS CANON!!! that's happened on several TGN, DS9, and Voyager episodes. Its is not going against the prime directive, in fact, its doing the very thing Starfleet was designed to do, Shelter and protect the innocent when they have formally asked for it.

Like it or not, there is nothing wrong here except the wording of that particular dialog.
A group asked for help against a branch of their government. You broke the PD by deciding to help. You broke the PD and got Starfleet involved by giving aid. Fail fail and fail. How on earth did we get our pips?

Helping one part of the population in a struggle against another? In what episode did that ever go beyond medical supplies and food? And when you have found those episodes, how many of them ended in anything but absolute disaster and high ranking Starfleet officials being booted/killed?

You do NOT get involved in the internal affairs of another government. It's that easy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainrevo1 View Post
You are ignoring the fact that they are the ones causing all the trouble. they have weapons and warships at their disposal.

they are attacking your ships, killing the remans, and even subjugating and experimenting on their own people.
So they are criminals? What laws do they break? Yours? Those are not their laws. Their own? Does that give a foreign government the right to intervene? DO WE know better than them how to handle their affairs? Such arrogance... believing OUR values and beliefs are the only right ones... Believing OUR culture is superior... Who are WE to decide that genecide and medical experiments are wrong in all situations? WE made those rules, and they apply to US, not everyone else. Some places cannibalism may be natural and necessary, some places killing 9 out of 10 infants. We can NOT apply OUR moral code to alien cultures!

"They" are attacking our ships. One faction of the Romulans. Does that give us the right to aid the opposing faction? It does not. It gives us the right to defend ourselves, as well as the right to hunt down and bring to trial anyone comitting acts of violence against a Fedeation vessle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by timelord79 View Post
Even AFTER the Cardassians left and the Federation was in a position to help and did so, the Bajorans were for the most part still distrustful and didn't want the help because they were too proud and feared another Federation led occupation instead of the Cardassian one.
Wrong. The federation presence at DS9 came to be after a direct request from the Bajoran government. It may not have won if brought to the vote, but the governments desicion is valid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by timelord79 View Post
There are no treaties that prevent any involvement of the Federation with the New Romulus colony.
Involvement, no. That's right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by timelord79 View Post
They are recognized as a sovereign state apart from the Romulan Empire by the two major factions in game, Federation AND Klingon Empire.
They are set up by the Federation. A clear violation of the prime directive, by favouring one group in an internal conflict...
Quote:
Originally Posted by timelord79 View Post
The Romulan Empire has no presence in any form apart from some Tal Shiar spies which try to influence the colonies leaders and gather intel.
Oh, they would have been present, if Starfleet hadn't chansed them away. Can't have anyone with opposing views messing up our vision of "perfect new romulus"...
Quote:
Originally Posted by timelord79 View Post
The new ROmulus colony is warp capable and has officially asked for help. The Prime Directive does not apply.
Prime directive does go beyond the article about contact with pre-warp cultures. It is also know as the Non-Interference Directive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by admiralq1732 View Post
Note to everyone, the Fed were NOT at war with the Romulans when Horbus exploded so the pre empted thing I'm against. AS far as helping New Romulus. THey are not an independent state, fledgling and fragile but still independent. Sela MIA left a power vacum so liely the Tal Shiar are taking over the RSE while the Remans and Romulans who are sick of RSE mentaility form a Romulan Republic. So no prime directive violation here
Depends. Does the Federation recognize the Tal Shiar as the legal government? And if so, have they issued a formal declaration of war before attacking? If you say yes to both of these, then there is no direct violation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by psycoticvulcan View Post
It's legitimate enough to be a significant threat to both the Federation and the Klingon Empire. Do you really want them to stand idly by while Sela's forces wreak havok?
At the moment, the Romulan homeworld is destroyed, the forces scattered. They do not represent a threath. Will they do so in the future? Possibly. Does this give us the righ to attack? Not at all! That is the logic used by those who try to justify their attempts at world domination!

Last edited by pvehero; 11-19-2012 at 11:24 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 953
# 43
11-19-2012, 11:26 AM
I believe the botched Federation entanglement with the Son'a and Baku is instructive here.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,327
# 44
11-19-2012, 11:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pvehero View Post
At the moment, the Romulan homeworld is destroyed, the forces scattered. They do not represent a threat. Will they do so in the future? Possibly. Does this give us the righ to attack? Not at all! That is the logic used by those who try to justify their attempts at world domination!
You're right, Sela's anti-Federation Empire is totally not a threat. I guess that massive battle fleet at Rator III was just for colonial defense, and the data warning of a Romulan threat to the Federation at Vendor Station was just wrong. That makes total sense.

The Tal Shiar are working for the Iconians. That's a confirmed fact. So the Tal Shiar are a direct threat, and the Federation and the Klingons have the right to defend themselves. The New Romulans aren't just refugees...they're allies against the Iconians.

And let's no forget, Our Picard was willing to violate the Temporal Prime Directive to potentially save millions of lives in "A Matter of Time". All five captains have done similar things in their respective series because they felt it was "the right thing to do".

Last edited by psycoticvulcan; 11-19-2012 at 11:38 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 953
# 45
11-19-2012, 11:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycoticvulcan View Post
You're right, Sela's anti-Federation Empire is totally not a threat. I guess that massive battle fleet at Rator III was just for colonial defense, and the data warning of a Romulan threat to the Federation at Vendor Station was just wrong.


And let's no forget, Our Picard was willing to violate the Temporal Prime Directive to potentially save millions of lives in "A Matter of Time". All five captains have done similar things in their respective series because they felt it was "the right thing to do".
Once again the Federation cockup with the Son'a and Baku is instructive.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 165
# 46
11-19-2012, 11:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycoticvulcan View Post
You're right, Sela's anti-Federation Empire is totally not a threat. I guess that massive battle fleet at Rator III was just for colonial defense, and the data warning of a Romulan threat to the Federation at Vendor Station was just wrong. That makes total sense.

The Tal Shiar are working for the Iconians. That's a confirmed fact. So the Tal Shiar are a direct threat, and the Federation and the Klingons have the right to defend themselves. The New Romulans aren't just refugees...they're allies against the Iconians.

And let's no forget, Our Picard was willing to violate the Temporal Prime Directive to potentially save millions of lives in "A Matter of Time". All five captains have done similar things in their respective series because they felt it was "the right thing to do".
Massive Fleet? The last remains of the Romulan empire, that were destroyed by a federation task force? Doesn't Nimoy himself tell us upon entering the sector, that the Romulan empire is weak and scattered, struggeling against itself.

Iconians? What do we know about them? What danger do they pose? Next you'll tell me you have satellite pictures of a factory producing chemical weapons, right outside their capital Baghdad...

Yes, on occation an individual Captain would use his judgement to go against the directive. Based on situations where they felt it justifieable. Is this imagined threath a justification of preemptive strikes against refugees? No wonder it's so hard getting Romulans to trust Starfleet... :p
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 127
# 47
11-19-2012, 11:50 AM
Beyond all that, there's always been an...interesting implication in the use of the Prime Directive. While it totally does state that you're not supposed to have any interference in other cultures, the unspoken continuation of that is "...that might come back to bite us in the ass, or that you can't cover up".

I mean, against lower-tech worlds, captains are always "Prime Directive this" and "Can't interfere that", but what they really mean is "We're smarter than to try to rapidly increase your tech level because what happens if you decide to bite the hand that feeds you?"

Then against similar tech-level cultures that don't span multiple worlds, what they seem to mean is "Look, getting involved in this will cost us resources. We're just not doing it unless and until you can prove it's worth our while".

But when it's come to, say, the Klingons, or the Cardassians, or the Romulans, Starfleet has very rarely missed an opportunity to **** with them. Because they are large government bodies spanning multiple galaxies, and they have been willing, ready, and able to **** with the Federation. So a lot of prime directive breaking happens under the guise of "protecting Federation interests".


You know, kind of like the real world. So in the case of New Romulus, Starfleet can rather easily go "Look. These guys are refugees, and there's no official Romulan government any longer. We can't afford to leave these guys to the wolves, because, let's face it. Romulans already hate us, so if we leave these guys with no help, that'll just be *asking* for war as soon as they can muster the ability. Let's fix that issue now".

Starfleet tries to stay out of other cultures' business, yes, but they've never been stupid. And whenever something of questionable legality has needed to happen to ensure Federation safety, there's never seemed to be any problem with making sure it occurs.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 165
# 48
11-19-2012, 12:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cindylawson View Post
You know, kind of like the real world. So in the case of New Romulus, Starfleet can rather easily go "Look. These guys are refugees, and there's no official Romulan government any longer. We can't afford to leave these guys to the wolves, because, let's face it. Romulans already hate us, so if we leave these guys with no help, that'll just be *asking* for war as soon as they can muster the ability. Let's fix that issue now".
But the possible ramifications would always have to be considered. How predictable are the results of our efforts?

In the case of new romulus, I'd say it's wide open. These colonies risk getting slaughtered to the last man, because of accepting Federation aid, if the TalS and the Iconians are strong enoug.

Besides, there is a wide difference between offering assistance and preemptive strikes...
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,327
# 49
11-19-2012, 01:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pvehero View Post
Massive Fleet? The last remains of the Romulan empire, that were destroyed by a federation task force? Doesn't Nimoy himself tell us upon entering the sector, that the Romulan empire is weak and scattered, struggeling against itself.
Here's what Nimoy has to say about Psi Velorum (where Rator is located)

"On a remote world, scientists are adapting Borg technology to suit their own needs. A Federation crew caught in an impossible situation fights to survive, but help may not arrive in time. Who will heed their desperate call?

In their anguish, the Romulans could cause a greater tragedy than even they imagine."


Nothing "weak and scattered" in there. And here's Iota Pavonis, where Romulus was located:

"On a forgotten world, a shadow of great evil lurks, waiting for the chance to strike. The truth behind the destruction of the Romulus system may be the harbinger of the greatest threat the Federation has ever faced."

Obviously he's referring to the Iconians, which brings me to the next point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pvehero View Post
Iconians? What do we know about them? What danger do they pose?
Well, let's see...
  • They attacked the Undine and blamed the Alpha/Beta quadrant powers, causing the Undine to cause chaos ("A Light in the Dark")
  • They got Taris and Arranhu to blow up Hobus ("Ground Zero", "Taris")
  • They got Hakeev and the rest of the Tal Shiar to experiment with various races to find the best ways to get them to destroy themeselves ("Coliseum", "Cutting the Cord")
  • When we glimpsed one of their ships, they told us to "Look upon us and tremble". ("The Return")

Given all that...yeah, I'd say they're hostile. And since Hakeev, Obisek, Eraun, Spock, and Q all testify that the Iconians are super powerful, we can conclude that they're also very dangerous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pvehero View Post
Yes, on occation an individual Captain would use his judgement to go against the directive. Based on situations where they felt it justifieable. Is this imagined threath a justification of preemptive strikes against refugees? No wonder it's so hard getting Romulans to trust Starfleet... :p
Refugees that are trying to destabilize the quadrant for the Iconians to reconquer? Refugees that send assault fleets to invade the Federation, like in "Preemptive Strike"? I think that justifies a few preemptive strikes. As Worf says, "Adopting a siege mentality is ultimately self-defeating".
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 553
# 50
11-19-2012, 02:04 PM
It doesn't matter if Picard would approve. He is retired in France drinking wine and smelling the cheeses. It isn't his Star Fleet anymore.

Let the preemptive strikes commence.
Chingachgook told me, Don't try to understand them; and don't try to make them understand you. For they are a breed apart and make no sense.
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