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Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
Hi guys, it's the crazy knight of heresy. After the recent Fleet AC thread, someone posted up that maybe they should have a fleet dreadnaught at tier 5. And I, being slightly insane, thought they meant dreadnaught type (in-game designation, like how certain NPC ships are cruisers (like the orb weaver), certain ships are considered battleships (like the recluse), and some are dreadnaughts (like the tarantula), that method). I figured out now that they were probably referring to that horrible 3-nacelled monstrosity, but I went out on a limb and decided to look at what is considered a dreadnaught NPC.

On the Klingon side, any NPC bigger than a neg'vhar is considered a dreadnaught. This includes but is not limited to Vo'quv and Bortas class ships, plus siege ships in FA and blockade. On the Fed side, anything bigger than the Typhoon is considered a dreadnaught, which again includes, but is not limited to the Odyssey and fed siege ships.

That in mind, what if they did indeed make a REAL fleet version of the Bortas and Odyssey? You have to admit the current ones are trash. 9 consoles, terrible stats, and you can't even use the unique consoles that the c-store ships come with. All the other fleet ships can. Take the Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit. It has 10 consoles, and can use the cloak console (not that a lot of players do, but it can). Same for the Fleet Advanced Escort. It can use the MVAM. I would go on, but brain not working at 100% atm, so don't want to seem stupider than my next few paragraphs are going to make me out to be.

Now these NEW fleet versions would be tier 5 like the current ones. However they would cost 500k fleet creds, and they would also require Fleet Ship Modules, and Fleet Ship Requisitions. Multiples of BOTH. I leave it up to the devs to decide how many of each (in the unlikely event they do this). Cost aside, let's go into actual stats on these new ships.

Fleet Odyssey Cruiser Retrofit

Rank: Vice Admiral
Type: Criuser
Tier: 5.5/6 (whatever fleet ships are considered)
Hull: 46200 (+10% due to fleet status)
Shield Modifier: 1.25 (+10% due to fleet status)
Impulse Modifier: 0.16 (slight improvement over c-store versions)
Turn Rate: 6.5 (slight improvement over c-store versions)
Inertia Rating: 22 (slight improvement over c-store versions)
Crew: 2500
Weapons: 4 fore, 4 aft
Bonus Power: +10 to Shields and Aux, +5 to Weapons and Engines (fleet ship AND flagship, so I figure boosted power shouldn't be THAT overpowered/unexpected, however I would be willing to compromise and just go with the usual +5 to all subsystems that cruisers normally have)

BOff Layout:
Lt. Tactical
Cmdr Engineering
Lt. Science
LtCmdr Universal
Lt Universal (slight improvement over c-store versions)

Console Layout:
3 Tactical
4 Engineering
3 Science
(chose the tactical layout since I see that as the most balanced, which is what I would expect from a fleet version)

3 Unique Console slots
(these slots are for Odyssey consoles ONLY, i.e Aquarius, Chevron, Worker Bees. They are like Hangar slots on carriers, part of the ship, but don't interfere with normal consoles)

These unique consoles are what makes the fleet ship possibly OP. The ability to have the Odyssey set without losing out on normal consoles might make the ship OP, but on the other hand would force players to put a lot of resources in, since you would need not only the Oddy 3 pack, but you would also need the FSMs, FSRs, and Fleet Creds. That would end up costing a lot of time and zen. Which is what I see balances it out a little.

Fleet Bortas Battlecruiser Retrofit

Rank: Lieutenant General
Type: Battlecruiser
Hull: 47850 (+10% due to fleet status)
Shield Modifier: 1.1 (+10% due to fleet status)
Impulse Modifier: 0.16 (slight improvement over c-store versions)
Turn Rate: 6 (slight improvement over c-store versions)
Inertia: 19.8 (slight improvement over c-store versions)
Crew: 3600
Weapons: 4 fore, 4 aft
Bonus Power: +10 to Weapons and Shields, +5 to Engines and Aux (fleet ship AND flagship, so I figure boosted power shouldn't be THAT overpowered/unexpected, however I would be willing to compromise and just go with the usual +10 to weapons and shields which is more typical of a KDF battlecruiser)

BOff Layout:
Lt Tactical
Cmdr Engineering
Lt Science
LtCmdr Universal
Lt Universal (slight improvement over c-store versions)

Console Layout:
5 Tactical
4 Engineering
1 Science
(It's the Klingons. They like to get lots of bang for buck. I figured the War Cruiser layout to be appropriate due to it being the way the KDF does things. Shoot first, blow it up, then figure out what it was. If they even bother to do that.)

3 Unique Console Slots
(Like Hangar slots, allow for use of the consoles without interfering with normal consoles, but are limited to Bortasqu set consoles ONLY)

Again like the Fleet Odyssey, it's the unique console slots that will probably draw the most flak and make this ship possibly OP, but again, it will require the purchasing of the Bortasqu 3 pack in addition to the FSMs, FSRs, and Fleet Creds. This huge cost in zen and time should balance out the power of the ship.

Now both of these ships are quite powerful, and if you add in their ability to use their set bonuses while still maintaining 10 normal consoles, possibly stupidly so, but remember, they would also need a tier 5 shipyard, which would take a lot of time, effort, and resources (or a TON of ECs if you are too lazy to do it with your own fleet and want to buy it from a fleet at tier 5).

The way I see it, it's a win win for players and devs alike. We finally get our flagships that aren't just for show, and the huge cost in zen and time would be good for the game creators.

Thoughts please? (constructive thoughts requested not trolls, and PLEASE do NOT start the Cruisers are too weak thread in here...)

*Note: During the creation of this thread, I have been a little woozy and not completely coherent, so if I made too many spelling errors, please let me know.
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Last edited by hereticknight085; 11-20-2012 at 04:00 AM. Reason: had to purty it up for it's destruction by way of trolls and nay sayers...
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,192
# 2
11-20-2012, 04:18 AM
Isn't obessey already considered a fleet ship with its 10 consoles ? Do not think this game needs to inflate the ships-strenght even more with another tier of ships...
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,903
# 3
11-20-2012, 04:58 AM
it's an idea for a tier 6.5 ship. If cryptic raises the level cap...that might be what an upgrade may look like for the oddy, but until then it is just *slightly* overpowered.
Go pro or go home
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 245
# 4
11-20-2012, 08:52 AM
2000 zen ship better than 2500 zen one ?
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 153
# 5
11-20-2012, 09:55 AM
Yeah sure, why not take the ultimate tank/heal cruiser and give it even more hull and an insane shield mod of 1.25...

You are aware of the fact that the Odyssey and Bortas C-Store packs are already Fleet ship level right? I mean hull, shield mod and 10 console slots, its all there. The T5 Odyssey/Bortas is just a tease, they are the same as the second anniversary ships and there is really no reason to get them. They are just there for advertisment.

I think we are all aware that people still somehow manage to fail and die with ships like the Odyssey and the Vesta, but creating ridiculous stats that no ship has ever seen before will not solve that.

Edit: Oh, just saw your ships also offer 13 skill slots. Yeah cool, you can never get enough of them. There's nothing else in the game with 13 slots, so I guess that's a good reason the Odyssey should get it.
-----------------------
decker999
Join Date: Aug 2010

Last edited by decker03; 11-20-2012 at 09:58 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,168
# 6
11-20-2012, 09:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
On the Klingon side, any NPC bigger than a neg'vhar is considered a dreadnaught. This includes but is not limited to Vo'quv and Bortas class ships, plus siege ships in FA and blockade. On the Fed side, anything bigger than the Typhoon is considered a dreadnaught, which again includes, but is not limited to the Odyssey and fed siege ships.
It's a matter of power, not size. Feds have Galaxy, Jupiter, and Odyssey; Klingons have Bortasqu' and Vo'quv.

[/nitpick]
Say NO to mandatory Arc!
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 5,259
# 7
11-20-2012, 10:38 AM
That certainly would make them much more powerful, and truly be flagships. Just have a couple qualms about it:

1. Multiple fleet ship provisions? Sorry, I really don't agree with this one. Yes it would make it truly a fleet ship in all meanings of the word, the biggest 'prize' you could say of reaching tier 5 shipyards.

But having it need multiple provisions could make a lot of fleets 'shut off' ship buying potentially, or it could be kind of an elitist status symbol to own one.

2. 500,000 FCs and modules is a steep price tag as-is. Would there be no discount given whatsoever to anyone who had the bundles already?

Even so, people in small fleets would never ever reach a tier 5 shipyard (ignoring them leaving to buy it elsewhere), and a large fleet would have a lot of people wanting fleet ships in the first place, not to mention few people having that much FC, let alone an extra module cost.

Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 62
# 8
11-20-2012, 12:56 PM
Why not add a hangar or to while ur at it...
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 9
11-20-2012, 02:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vesolc View Post
2000 zen ship better than 2500 zen one ?
If you look at what I said, I was saying that it would cost even more than your usual ship in FSMs (I personally was thinking 8 or 10). And it is technically a fleet ship, so yes, it would be more powerful. Look at the Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit. It costs 2k zen but is far more powerful than the c-store Tactical Escort Retrofit. So yes, in that sense, a 2k zen ship better than a 2500 zen ship, but in this case, it would cost 4k to 5k zen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by slurmer View Post
Why not add a hangar or to while ur at it...
Not sure if you're mocking me or something, but I did say this would require a tier 5 shipyard and a TON of time and resources. I also was loopy as hell when writing this, and it's just an idea. No need to get snippy. Besides, we all know it will never be executed or even introduced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mimey2 View Post
That certainly would make them much more powerful, and truly be flagships. Just have a couple qualms about it:

1. Multiple fleet ship provisions? Sorry, I really don't agree with this one. Yes it would make it truly a fleet ship in all meanings of the word, the biggest 'prize' you could say of reaching tier 5 shipyards.

But having it need multiple provisions could make a lot of fleets 'shut off' ship buying potentially, or it could be kind of an elitist status symbol to own one.

2. 500,000 FCs and modules is a steep price tag as-is. Would there be no discount given whatsoever to anyone who had the bundles already?

Even so, people in small fleets would never ever reach a tier 5 shipyard (ignoring them leaving to buy it elsewhere), and a large fleet would have a lot of people wanting fleet ships in the first place, not to mention few people having that much FC, let alone an extra module cost.
Probably the most constructive post other than baudls. In response to your comments:

To point #1: I put that in since you are getting a ship that is stupidly powerful. If you had it just cost 1 FSP and the usual 4 FSMs, then it would be too easy to get. The whole point here was to make a ship that you had to work your rear off to get, and you would be handsomely rewarded for all your work. Granted I have no control over fleet politics, so if leaders want to be douches and not let just ANYONE have it, that's their call.

To point #2: Again, the steep price was to ensure that it would be fair. You are in essence getting a 10 console ship that can also use the set bonus without any penalty to it's regular abilities. There needs to be a high cost, or it IS too easy to get.

You are probably right, that it will turn into an elitest symbol, but since there are so many ships that are better than cruisers (even those two ships), in the end, it will probably just be a symbol, nothing more. But imagine if you could have your oddy or bort with it's set bonus and still have all 10 consoles available. THAT would be a true flagship, as you stated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by decker03 View Post
Yeah sure, why not take the ultimate tank/heal cruiser and give it even more hull and an insane shield mod of 1.25...

You are aware of the fact that the Odyssey and Bortas C-Store packs are already Fleet ship level right? I mean hull, shield mod and 10 console slots, its all there. The T5 Odyssey/Bortas is just a tease, they are the same as the second anniversary ships and there is really no reason to get them. They are just there for advertisement.

I think we are all aware that people still somehow manage to fail and die with ships like the Odyssey and the Vesta, but creating ridiculous stats that no ship has ever seen before will not solve that.

Edit: Oh, just saw your ships also offer 13 skill slots. Yeah cool, you can never get enough of them. There's nothing else in the game with 13 slots, so I guess that's a good reason the Odyssey should get it.
And your post is probably the most aggressive, and I daresay not horribly encouraging, but still has valid points, and is surprisingly constructive as a result, so I will respond to it. For starters, it's not necessarily the ultimate tank/heal cruiser. That goes to the Fleet Galaxy-R. If you look at overall stats and BOff slots, the Galaxy-R is the true supertank. The Oddy is just a more versatile ship.

Secondly, the hull shield mod increase was because those are fleet variants, want them to be a tad more powerful than the regular ones. And in all honesty, the Bort only has a mod of 1, which for a fleet ship is unacceptable. My Tor'Kaht has a shield mod of 1.15, and it's a lower tier on the shipyard, and costs less than the Bort c-store versions (ANY of them), and it's vastly superior in EVERY aspect except hull and size (size don't matter though). When you have a ship like that, you don't need any of the higher tier cruisers. Period.

Thirdly, you are correct, the c-store variants are on par with many fleet class cruisers, but they themselves don't have a valid fleet variant (and I do NOT consider the Odyssey Star Cruiser and Bortas Battlecruiser to be fleet ships. They are just too weak and only have 9 consoles). And you are also correct that the c-store versions are very powerful as is. But the hull and shield mods are not necessarily up to par with fleet versions, if you're looking at their roles. These are supposed to be the flagships. And yet the Bortasqu (c-store version) only has a shield mod of 1. Not 1.1, not 1.15, but 1. And the Odyssey? If it's a fleet ship, then why does the Fleet Galaxy-R have more hull than it does? Just a thought.

These stats may be a mite insane, but it's only an idea, and if you put ships like these into the hands of actually competent cruiser/battlecruiser pilots, then they will be able to do some serious damage. And no, this was not an attempt to make the idiots who die in oddys and vestas on a regular basis actually able to live. If I had my way, anyone who dishonors those ships by dying regularly and easily would have those ships removed from their rosters permanently. -.-

As for your edit, the sarcasm is palpable. I actually laughed when I read it. I figure by the time you were done writing your response, you were pretty worked up and kinda angry. So I will attempt a calm response. Those extra 3 slots are for unique odyssey/bortasqu consoles ONLY. You can't put anything else there. No extra tac consoles, no extra engi consoles, no extra sci consoles. Just the unique ability consoles. And the ONLY reason I put that there was so that it would maintain the 10 consoles of fleet ship, but still allow you to get the set bonus. If you want the set bonus (which isn't great, but isn't terrible for either of those two classes), you have to sacrifice 3 console slots. And despite what you get in return, it's not worth losing 3 consoles. That injustice (yeah, call me biased, but I see it as an injustice) is just a tad too much. So I just came up with a way for you to be able to use all your abilities and still have the 10 consoles of a fleet ship.

One thing you seemingly ignored (or dismissed, not sure which) is what mimey posted. The prohibitive cost of acquiring one. You are looking at 500 THOUSAND fleet credits, and eight to ten FSMs. That's just to get the base ship. Also it requires a tier 5 shipyard, which is going to get costly to get up to, and require lots of work on an entire fleet's part. Again, that's just for the base ship. If you want to add in the 3 consoles for the set bonus, that will cost you anywhere from 5k to 7500 zen. So in total, your ship will cost 500k fleet creds, and 10-12k zen, or 500k fleet creds, 5k-7500 zen, and 50 million ECs (provided you get FSMs at the usual 4.8 to 5.2 mil ecs per) if you want to bring it up to full potential. If you ask me, that huge cost certainly makes up for how powerful the ship is.

Thank you all for your input (decker included, as meimetoo would say, there must be an opposite reaction for every reaction), and please, keep the comments coming, I will try to clarify and explain anything you guys need me to.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Tired of Wasting EC and Time trying to get Superior Romulan Operative BOffs? Here's a cheap and easy way to get them, with an almost 100% chance of success.
Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,449
# 10
11-20-2012, 07:09 PM
The KDF won't like this.
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