Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 371
# 61
11-19-2012, 04:01 PM
WWPCD (What Would Picard Do)?

Let's not use Picard's name in vain, though...

Picard, smexy by His name.

I don't care how long you've been playing. I only care about how you play.
And remember to follow the rules.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,168
# 62
11-19-2012, 04:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordfuzun View Post
Overthrow a government? He did no such thing. He did violate orders. But given the potential bad that did/didn't come of it, it turned out to the the correct decision.
I think he/she was talking about killing the Borg Queen.
Say NO to mandatory Arc!
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,073
# 63
11-19-2012, 04:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pvehero View Post
Picard...would not...approve...
Picard violated the neutral zone several times to do pre-emptive strikes. He violated it in 'Contagion' (the same episode we learn of the Iconians) and he did so a second time in 'The Defector' when he was given intel by a romulan admiral that his people have set up a forward base from which to launch an all-out attack on the Federation. He also turned his ship around and raced to confront a Warbird upon suspicion that they had kidnapped a Federation Ambassador in 'Data's Day'. I can't remember if they ever crossed the neutral zone but if they had it wouldn't have stopped him.

Picard has also done covert missions, one to Romulus itself to ascertain Ambassador Spock's motives for appearing to defect, and another to cardassian space upon intel (turned out to be misinformation) that they were developing biogenic weapons with a subspace delivery system. Picard has also been involved in a pre-emptive strike on the Maquis in an episode, funnily enough, titled 'Pre-emptive Strike'.

Finally, the number of times Picard has violated the prime directive outnumber the times he's invoked non-interference as a reason not to act. At best, you can say Picard is inconsistent with when he decides to uphold Starfleet's number one rule. Sometimes he thinks non-interference is the correct choice (like in 'Redemption part 1' where it makes sense, or the execreable 'Homeward' where it does not), and other times he'll ignore local custom for his own ends ('Justice' because of the Edo's absurd punishment for minor transgressions - yes even if it would mean Wesley's death - or 'Pen Pals', a similar enough story to the one in 'Homeward', or the fantastic 'Who Watches the Watchers', where Picard intervenes to correct an accidental contamination of a pre-warp society who mistook him for being a god).
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 5,259
# 64
11-19-2012, 08:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fraghul2000 View Post

If you look at what missions, storyline and doff assignments we get: the STO version of the Federation pretty much feels like the British Empire of the 1800's. Aggressive colonization (even in Klingon and Romulan space), deploying colonial troops (e.g. Caitians), exploiting local rescources whenever they can, ruthless killing of indigenous wildlife and local populace at the blink of an eye, getting involved in the local politics of every conquered and neighbouring species (bajoran, cardassian, klingon, romulan, deferi...) etc...

...hence why many of my ships carry British names. Wish we'd be able to get the HMS-prefix. Heck, even their security forces are redcoats.
*clears throat*

Well, you need to remember that...

A British tar is a soaring soul!
As free as a mountain bird!

Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 971
# 65
11-20-2012, 01:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycoticvulcan View Post
I think he/she was talking about killing the Borg Queen.
Well in that case, it was Picard fulfilling his oath of protecting the Earth (and the Federation) from hostile entities. I think preemptively via time travel preventing First Contact by assimilating the Earth would be considered a hostile act. Somehow I don't think the Prime Directive applies in a situation like that. The Prime Directive is meant to make the Federation a neutral government, not a peacenik pacific government.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 165
# 66
11-20-2012, 03:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyranger1414 View Post
Besides, is the prime directive actually the correct philosophy to follow?

(...)
Neither is trying to justify it to yourself by pretending that helping them would bring about potentially worse consequences.. unless you are clairvoyant. And if you CAN see the future and choose the least terrible option regardless of the cost in the present then you are STILL having to justify playing God.
(...)
Seriously if a rule makes you go against your morals and common sense its pretty clear its become an immoral rule. Even a barely coherent caveman can see that, no fancy starships needed if you have a bit of common sense!
The Prime Directive is actually your primary directive, so following it is not optional.

The fact that we DON'T know the potential consequences is why we are not allowed to interfere.

Aha... so we have a universal moral and common sense now? Your's, or the Tal Shiars? Or the Borg moral? Do you suppose it's ok for US to enforce OUR moral code on other civilizations? When we know that our own "moral code" is changing topsy-turvy every decade or so?

Single exceptions from the prime directive CAN be made, because no rule can predict every situation. But when we DO, we must be SURE that the consequences will be worse if we don't. We must know it. And we must know all the consequences! Taking sides in an internal conflict is so beyond this that I lack word to emphasize it enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skyranger1414 View Post
OP, reading the quote it doesn't say they struck at refugees. I would imagine if anything they struck at Tal Shiar forces. Why would you assume they attacked refugees?
The Tal Shiar had their home destroyed, they're scattered and in search of a new home. That does not make them refugees? Then neither is the rest of the Romulan population.

If someone, regardless of the reason, or what organization he's part of, or what crimes he may have committed, has his home destroyed and is forced to relocate in search of a new place to call home, he's a refugee. Torn clothes and lack of resources is not mandatory. (it just makes it easier to get sympathy)
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,168
# 67
11-20-2012, 04:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pvehero View Post
The Prime Directive is actually your primary directive, so following it is not optional.

The fact that we DON'T know the potential consequences is why we are not allowed to interfere.

Aha... so we have a universal moral and common sense now? Your's, or the Tal Shiars? Or the Borg moral? Do you suppose it's ok for US to enforce OUR moral code on other civilizations? When we know that our own "moral code" is changing topsy-turvy every decade or so?

Single exceptions from the prime directive CAN be made, because no rule can predict every situation. But when we DO, we must be SURE that the consequences will be worse if we don't. We must know it. And we must know all the consequences! Taking sides in an internal conflict is so beyond this that I lack word to emphasize it enough.


The Tal Shiar had their home destroyed, they're scattered and in search of a new home. That does not make them refugees? Then neither is the rest of the Romulan population.

If someone, regardless of the reason, or what organization he's part of, or what crimes he may have committed, has his home destroyed and is forced to relocate in search of a new place to call home, he's a refugee. Torn clothes and lack of resources is not mandatory. (it just makes it easier to get sympathy)
I tend to agree, but the situation in STO doesn't really qualify in my eyes. Thanks to the Iconians -- and through them, the Undine -- there really are no "internal" conflicts anymore. Pretty much everything that happens in the Alpha/Beta Quadrants is directly related to their shenanigans, and will directly impact the future of the galaxy for centuries to come.
Say NO to mandatory Arc!

Last edited by psycoticvulcan; 11-20-2012 at 05:28 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,691
# 68
11-20-2012, 05:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pvehero View Post
The Prime Directive is actually your primary directive, so following it is not optional.

The fact that we DON'T know the potential consequences is why we are not allowed to interfere.
Again, you don't know if the consequences would be worse or not than the current problem. By following a rule blindly you are simply deciding to not make a choice and potentially a catastrophe could happen. What you said is pretty scary for other reasons though, if following it is not optional then starfleet is not made up of freewilled thinking people anymore. Sad day indeed!

That's the problem you see, in order to create cheap/false drama writers have made teh prime directive some sacred rule... which its not. It can't be, not if you want an universe populated by thinking beings.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pvehero View Post
Aha... so we have a universal moral and common sense now? Your's, or the Tal Shiars? Or the Borg moral? Do you suppose it's ok for US to enforce OUR moral code on other civilizations? When we know that our own "moral code" is changing topsy-turvy every decade or so?
Silly pvehero, how is the prime directive any different? You are forcing a non choice on others. Others that might very well welcome some well meaning interference if it might avert a tragedy. By not interfering when you clearly must all you do is keep your hands clean and convince yourself you took the moral high road.... tsk, tsk.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 379
# 69
11-20-2012, 05:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by angrytarg View Post
(my signature speaks for itself I think )
Didn't Janeway and co. get stranded on a prehistoric planet and only get off because they got help for a nutty killer and some Talaxian ships, fat lot of good their morals did them there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by obsidiusrex View Post
WWPCD (What Would Picard Do)?
TV Picard or trek lit relaunch Picard?

Because if we're going with lit relaunch Picard I don't know if kidnapping the warring Romulan faction leaders and showing them a worn down Romulan refugee center to shame them into getting their heads out of the a@#es would work.

Last edited by hartzilla; 11-20-2012 at 05:36 PM.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,880
# 70
11-20-2012, 06:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by solidneutronium View Post
You're a tribble huh?

Picard by killing the Borg queen effectively deposed the governing body of the Borg (no pun intended). I call that a violation of the non-interference directive.
Actually.... Picard was carrying out a variation of General Order 24

The exact wording was never specified on screen but it appears to be something along the lines of "If group is dead set on wiping out the Federation, AND has the weapons to do so, take them out."

IE, invoking General Order 24 is a declaration of all-out war between a race and the Federation. The Borg? Um, yeah, they meet both criteria.
HAIL HYDRA!

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