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Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 11
11-20-2012, 08:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
Fleet Bortas Battlecruiser Retrofit

Rank: Lieutenant General
Type: Battlecruiser
Hull: 47850 (+10% due to fleet status)
Shield Modifier: 1.1 (+10% due to fleet status)
Impulse Modifier: 0.16 (slight improvement over c-store versions)
Turn Rate: 6 (slight improvement over c-store versions)
Inertia: 19.8 (slight improvement over c-store versions)
Crew: 3600
Weapons: 4 fore, 4 aft
Bonus Power: +10 to Weapons and Shields, +5 to Engines and Aux (fleet ship AND flagship, so I figure boosted power shouldn't be THAT overpowered/unexpected, however I would be willing to compromise and just go with the usual +10 to weapons and shields which is more typical of a KDF battlecruiser)

BOff Layout:
Lt Tactical
Cmdr Engineering
Lt Science
LtCmdr Universal
Lt Universal (slight improvement over c-store versions)

Console Layout:
5 Tactical
4 Engineering
1 Science
(It's the Klingons. They like to get lots of bang for buck. I figured the War Cruiser layout to be appropriate due to it being the way the KDF does things. Shoot first, blow it up, then figure out what it was. If they even bother to do that.)

3 Unique Console Slots
(Like Hangar slots, allow for use of the consoles without interfering with normal consoles, but are limited to Bortasqu set consoles ONLY)

Again like the Fleet Odyssey, it's the unique console slots that will probably draw the most flak and make this ship possibly OP, but again, it will require the purchasing of the Bortasqu 3 pack in addition to the FSMs, FSRs, and Fleet Creds. This huge cost in zen and time should balance out the power of the ship.
Quote:
Originally Posted by age03 View Post
The KDF won't like this.
Explain why the KDF won't like this.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Tired of Wasting EC and Time trying to get Superior Romulan Operative BOffs? Here's a cheap and easy way to get them, with an almost 100% chance of success.
Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 154
# 12
11-21-2012, 12:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
For starters, it's not necessarily the ultimate tank/heal cruiser. That goes to the Fleet Galaxy-R. If you look at overall stats and BOff slots, the Galaxy-R is the true supertank. The Oddy is just a more versatile ship.
On paper the Galaxy might look like the best tank and the Fleet Galaxy even more, but everybody who played cruisers for more than 5 minutes in an environment where performace really maters will notice that theory doesn't match actual gameplay. The (Fleet) Star Cruiser is superior as tank and as healer and the Odyssey even more. The Odyssey is more versatile but, specially thanks to DOFFs, manages to get the same tanking and healing abilities like the Galaxy and if build correctly outperforming her.

Let's not forget the Fleet Galaxy requires a T4 shipyard. Not as bad as T5 but still a hell of a grind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
Secondly, the hull shield mod increase was because those are fleet variants, want them to be a tad more powerful than the regular ones. And in all honesty, the Bort only has a mod of 1, which for a fleet ship is unacceptable. My Tor'Kaht has a shield mod of 1.15, and it's a lower tier on the shipyard, and costs less than the Bort c-store versions (ANY of them), and it's vastly superior in EVERY aspect except hull and size (size don't matter though). When you have a ship like that, you don't need any of the higher tier cruisers. Period.
And here is where the problem starts. The C-Store Odyssey pack already has fleet ship stats, even more so with its 1.15 shield mod. It's basically an account wide fleet ship unlock like now also the Vesta and the Steamrunner. Further increasing its stats will kick it above every single ship in the game. The fact that this ship is supposed to be a flagship is nice and fluffy but not a balancing factor for actual gameplay. It would create a "one and only cruiser" situation, something nobody should really be interested in IMHO.

Stats for the Bortas C-Store pack are a different story. I agree that shield mods of the Bortasqu' could be higher, but I think that's a balancing factor for having a cloak and being generally more offensive than the Odyssey. I don't think your Fleet Vorcha has a shield mod of 1.15 but only 1.1 like other fleet cruisers. If not, that might be a bug. The Odyssey/Bortasqu' were here before the fleet ships. Unfortunatly that means to "encourage" people to spend resources/money on fleet ships Cryptic had to make new ships appealing. This means the Fleet Vorcha is a superior tactical choice and maybe the Fleet Corsair for example is a good (or better?) support choice. I'm not saying this is right, but it is as it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
Thirdly, you are correct, the c-store variants are on par with many fleet class cruisers, but they themselves don't have a valid fleet variant (and I do NOT consider the Odyssey Star Cruiser and Bortas Battlecruiser to be fleet ships. They are just too weak and only have 9 consoles). And you are also correct that the c-store versions are very powerful as is. But the hull and shield mods are not necessarily up to par with fleet versions, if you're looking at their roles. These are supposed to be the flagships. And yet the Bortasqu (c-store version) only has a shield mod of 1. Not 1.1, not 1.15, but 1. And the Odyssey? If it's a fleet ship, then why does the Fleet Galaxy-R have more hull than it does? Just a thought.
They do not need a fleet variant cause they already are a fleet variant. Not by name but by stats. We could talk about the free Odyssey/Bortas being missplaced at T5 and I'd most likely agree with you. I still see them as a teaser to get people interested in the C-Store packs and they should probably be at T2 like the Fleet Star Cruiser.

The Fleet Galaxy has more hull because it has nothing else to offer. The only selling point of the Galaxy, at least for me, is that it is a Galaxy. At some point I'll probably invest the 1 FSM to get it and will take it out into STFs or easy PvP as I do sometimes with the Galaxy-R, but just because I love the ship design and being aware of the fact that I would perform way better with a Fleet Star Cruiser or Fleet Heavy Cruiser-R.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
As for your edit, the sarcasm is palpable. I actually laughed when I read it. I figure by the time you were done writing your response, you were pretty worked up and kinda angry. So I will attempt a calm response. Those extra 3 slots are for unique odyssey/bortasqu consoles ONLY. You can't put anything else there. No extra tac consoles, no extra engi consoles, no extra sci consoles. Just the unique ability consoles. And the ONLY reason I put that there was so that it would maintain the 10 consoles of fleet ship, but still allow you to get the set bonus. If you want the set bonus (which isn't great, but isn't terrible for either of those two classes), you have to sacrifice 3 console slots. And despite what you get in return, it's not worth losing 3 consoles. That injustice (yeah, call me biased, but I see it as an injustice) is just a tad too much. So I just came up with a way for you to be able to use all your abilities and still have the 10 consoles of a fleet ship.
Sorry for the confusion. I wasn't talking about console slots but about bridge officer stations. Your ship has 1 Commander, 1 Lt. Commander and 3 Lieutenant stations. That's 13 stations, every other ship only has 12 or less. But yeah 13 consoles is also only slightly too much

Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
One thing you seemingly ignored (or dismissed, not sure which) is what mimey posted. The prohibitive cost of acquiring one. You are looking at 500 THOUSAND fleet credits, and eight to ten FSMs. That's just to get the base ship. Also it requires a tier 5 shipyard, which is going to get costly to get up to, and require lots of work on an entire fleet's part. Again, that's just for the base ship. If you want to add in the 3 consoles for the set bonus, that will cost you anywhere from 5k to 7500 zen. So in total, your ship will cost 500k fleet creds, and 10-12k zen, or 500k fleet creds, 5k-7500 zen, and 50 million ECs (provided you get FSMs at the usual 4.8 to 5.2 mil ecs per) if you want to bring it up to full potential. If you ask me, that huge cost certainly makes up for how powerful the ship is.
Right, I shouldn't have let this go without a comment and actually it's quite simple. Aquisition cost is not a gameplay balancing factor. Undeniable it takes some work, massive grinding and probably money to get a T5 shipyard, the Odyssey/Bortas pack and enough FSMs but this will just increase the time it takes till the first player gets one. As soon as this kind of ship is rolling out of shipyards your balancing factor is out of the window.

Also, and I'm fully aware that the terms P2W and OP are used quite excessively these days, but your ship would be the best example I can think of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
Besides, we all know it will never be executed or even introduced.
This is Cryptic/PWE we are talking about. At somepoint things like this will happen, just for the one and only reason that money can be made with it. Also for whatever reason Cryptic seems to think that every new ship released has to be more powerful than the last one or it won't sell.
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decker999
Join Date: Aug 2010
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 13
11-21-2012, 12:48 AM
Interesting points you brought up, and great response. You must admit though, a ship like this would certainly be an interesting addition to the fleet for both sides.

I see the cost as being the main deal here, but you're right, as soon as the first one rolls off the assembly line, that will be a moot point. But again, take into account the time and effort that went into getting there. And the zen. ugh. For free players (like me) getting a ship like this would be tantamount to a crowning achievement in this game. I would do the grind, I would pay the zen, I would do it all that was needed to get this ship, all without paying a cent, but only for one reason. Because I love cruisers. And I love that ship class. And I will stand by what I say about the Oddy being a great ship. But I am still a little annoyed that to get the set bonus, you have to sacrifice 3 consoles. That doesn't really sit right with me, and in all honesty was the main reason I came up with this idea in the first place.

I will just out and say it. If you took away all the bonus stats (except the turn rate and inertia bonuses, want to keep those period lol) and just gave these ships the ability to use their unique consoles without having to lose out on their standard 10 console slots, I would be happy. I would be willing to give up all the extra hull, power, shields, BOff bonuses, etc, just to get this one part. Because that's the one I was going for. But making a tier 6 ship would be cool too. I dunno, maybe it should also be a requirement that all parts of your starbase be tier 5 to get it, or you need to have X accolade points, or something, but I am still open to ships like those two existing, granted for a hugely stupidly prohibitive cost etc, but I would still be open to them.

The main reason is because I also see the Oddy and Bort being slighted by all the newer ships coming out. Not surprising, not wholly unfair, but still not sitting well with me. I will even admit that the Odyssey class was the reason I started playing STO in the first place. I researched this game before joining. I looked to see if this game was something I could play based on other games I played. And I saw my role. Tank. I play tank in almost every game I play, the guy who goes in and gets smacked around, but stays alive while someone else picks guys off of him one at a time and kills them. The Odyssey, when I saw her, filled this role perfectly (this was before I was enlightened as to the true nature of PvE in STO, DPS). I joined shortly after it came out, and was enthralled by this new ship, this massive beast of the line. And I finally get one (many months later... 5k zen without spending a cent takes time, and yes, I got the 3 pack XD) and I am instantly taken with it's versatility and general ability to cause mayhem (just ask all the people I play with, I am constantly dashing in like an idiot with BFAW going XD... ironically doing that is a great way to get first place on fleet actions too XP) and just general awesomeness.

Then I met some of the new ships, like the Vesta, the Galor, and a few others. And the Oddy, in all it's awesomeness fell short. Besides, I also tried the bort. Same thing. Great ship, but as I said, my Tor'Kaht outdoes it in everything.

Anyways, back on topic. Yeah, this is the perfect example of a P2W ship. But how else will this game keep on going? Lame response, but I see this huge cost as fair. Besides, it's not indestructible, not even close. It's still a cruiser with a crappy turn rate and terrible inertia. But it takes into account actual things cruisers should already, like a massive warp core (hence the boosted power levels), tankability, and damage output (BOff and power levels). Basically it can be it all, and do it all. Not very well at anything, but well enough it can fill any role needed. That combined with the desire for the 3 unique consoles to not be a penalty, was my second reason for making this ship.

So I personally see it as fair, but would be willing to take criticism and changes to make it more fair in the eyes of you guys. I don't want to dismiss these ships outright, but would be interested to see what you guys would do to make them less OP.

But nice response decker. I like it.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Tired of Wasting EC and Time trying to get Superior Romulan Operative BOffs? Here's a cheap and easy way to get them, with an almost 100% chance of success.
Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder.

Last edited by hereticknight085; 11-21-2012 at 12:53 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,192
# 14
11-21-2012, 12:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
Interesting points you brought up, and great response. You must admit though, a ship like this would certainly be an interesting addition to the fleet for both sides.
What exactly would be interesting about it ? Except the fact, that it would be a T6 ship in T5 ship environment ? I fail to see the logic and actual need for such ship.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 154
# 15
11-21-2012, 02:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
You must admit though, a ship like this would certainly be an interesting addition to the fleet for both sides...

...But how else will this game keep on going?
I can't really agree here. It does the same as the Odyssey/Bortasqu' already does, just better and without an alternative. In a T6 or T6.5 environment, which I really hope will never happen, this ship may be viable.

People were unhappy before the Defiant, Galaxy and Intrepid got a Vice Admiral retrofit, they were unhappy that only a limited number of ships got a T5 upgrade and now that not every low tier ship got a fleet version. All those steps basically required people to upgrade and some ships were left out. Moving on to T6 ships will mean another upgrade and everything people spend their resources/money on will be obsolete. Ok that was a little bit off topic, but that's why I hope there will never be a real new tier of ships.

The problem STO devs created on their own is the extremely limiting ship tier system and ships with fixed BOFF layouts. They already start running out of options and thus we see so many universal slots. Personally I think universal slots and customization are good, but again you can only create so many different layouts and that's were they started to create more ridiculous ships like the Vesta. This will go on cause obviously Cryptic thinks that selling ship skins or just diversification (you could call it cosmetics) is bad, but selling more power is good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
So I personally see it as fair, but would be willing to take criticism and changes to make it more fair in the eyes of you guys. I don't want to dismiss these ships outright, but would be interested to see what you guys would do to make them less OP.
.
Well the Odyssey and Bortasqu' ships are, together with the fleet and lockbox ships, the top line of endgame ships at the moment in STO. Everything you do to increase their stats will put them ahead and create a new level of ships. They are, thanks to their versatility, still the best multi-role cruiser if you like to call them that way. Specialised tactical cruisers like the Regent and Excelsior will outperform her in that category, specialised science cruisers (I know there aren't any except maybe the Fleet Corsair) or carrier will outperform her in science but the Odyssey/Bortasqu' can do both to some extend together with their tanking/healing roles. That's actually what I think a true flagship should be.
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decker999
Join Date: Aug 2010
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 5,460
# 16
11-21-2012, 11:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
I
Probably the most constructive post other than baudls. In response to your comments:

To point #1: I put that in since you are getting a ship that is stupidly powerful. If you had it just cost 1 FSP and the usual 4 FSMs, then it would be too easy to get. The whole point here was to make a ship that you had to work your rear off to get, and you would be handsomely rewarded for all your work. Granted I have no control over fleet politics, so if leaders want to be douches and not let just ANYONE have it, that's their call.

To point #2: Again, the steep price was to ensure that it would be fair. You are in essence getting a 10 console ship that can also use the set bonus without any penalty to it's regular abilities. There needs to be a high cost, or it IS too easy to get.

You are probably right, that it will turn into an elitest symbol, but since there are so many ships that are better than cruisers (even those two ships), in the end, it will probably just be a symbol, nothing more. But imagine if you could have your oddy or bort with it's set bonus and still have all 10 consoles available. THAT would be a true flagship, as you stated.
Something I forgot to mention before: I'd be a little more willing to buy this new Fleet Ody/Bort if it had a new skin. I think that'd be fair. All the other fleet ships have different skins, and if you wanted to use the normal Ody or Bort skin, that'd be your choice.

Oh, trust me, I would LOVE to have this, don't misunderstand of course. I have the Bortas pack, and use the trio of consoles on my Klingon tac, using the Tac Bortas. I refer to it as a 'sleeping giant' for the most part, as while it does attack and kill normally, the moment I start mega-buffing, the 'giant wakes up', and then things REALLY die.

I can understand the steep price, it just felt like it might've been a bit overboard. Perhaps to still keep it super pricy, but not over the top, it would need like 8 modules, but you get a discount down to more like 4 or 5 if you own the bundle? As you've said, it's meant to take forever to get to, but someone will get to it. Why not make it at least a little easier, considering they would have to have a tier 5 shipyard to begin with?


Y'know, even if they didn't have extra hull or shields (though that'd be nice), the console slots for their consoles alone makes them worthwhile. Maybe they could give some other bonus? Like if you use all three consoles on these Fleet versions, you get an ability or something that only that ship can use. (Like how the D'kora can only use 'Friends in High Places' for example).

Also, I had a thought, about keeping people in fleets from wantonly buying these new flagships if they get to that point. Maybe have it so only a higher level member (highest and 2nd highest only) get a special item somehow, which doesn't cost anything, and give it to a person which would be needed to buy the ship.

I understand it could still be abused that way, so maybe it'd have a secret 'tag' on the item, which would mark it as being from a certain fleet, and could only be used to buy a flagship from that fleet.

Elite status symbol or no, it could be a good thing, to reward members who've done far more than their fair share. Also, if anything, I think it could potentially be a good way to show off your fleet's wealth by having one in the first place (especially if decked out totally with all Elite Fleet level gear).

Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 17
11-21-2012, 06:20 PM
Hence why I stated that if you took everything away and made just like the c-store versions (except the bonus turn rate and inertia), and just kept the unique console slots, then I would be happy with it. Something to note to those who are saying "Oh no, it's got 13 consoles now", just remember, those slots are like hangar slots. You can only put very specific things there, in this case, the Odyssey and Bortasqu consoles.

You would essentially get the set bonus (all those little buffs) without having to sacrifice 3 console slots. Again, take away all the bonus hull and shields and extra power, bring it all back down to c-store versions (again, keeping turn and inertia changes), but STILL KEEP THOSE UNIQUE CONSOLE SLOTS, and I would be satisfied.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Tired of Wasting EC and Time trying to get Superior Romulan Operative BOffs? Here's a cheap and easy way to get them, with an almost 100% chance of success.
Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,273
# 18
11-21-2012, 08:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
Explain why the KDF won't like this.
Well, I'm not representative of the KDF. . .but I'll take a swing at it, from my perspective as a BoP/Raptor enthusiast.

You're continuing the unpopular trend of sticking 5 tac consoles onto a ship that maneuvers like a giant space brick. In my personal opinion, 5 tac consoles is a waste on a ship that will likely only use beam arrays. Why not stick that console layout on a raptor? That way, we can utilize those consoles to their max effectiveness because cannons are practical on raptors. That, and we can finally get an escort-level ship that matches the Fleet Defiant in raw DPS. Not to mention that the KDF has been needing more SCIENCE ships for a while now. . .I'd prefer we get a line of 'free' ones, but at the very least any new ship additions should be aimed at sci specialties.

If we were really in need of a big, badass tanking cruiser that doesn't maneuver well, this would be awesome. As it is, we get all we need from the Kar'fi (which SHOULD have a fleet version, but doesn't), Fleet Tor'kaht, Fleet Negh'var, etc.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,268
# 19
11-21-2012, 08:23 PM
There are a lot of ships that are needed right now. I don't think a super-Oddy is one of them.
"It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid."
-- Q
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 229
# 20
11-22-2012, 07:00 AM
We need the Jupiter Class Dreadnought and Typhhon Class battleship.

But I always say that. Carry on.

-Quiiliitiila
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=91856067000&dateline=  1340218559
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