Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 31
11-18-2012, 08:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
Better idea, just make all heals percentage based, job done
Better idea still: Make engineering consoles less pathetic, and actually give them straight out percentage values like tac consoles and have them cap at X% (which I know they already do, so keep that).
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
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Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,043
# 32
11-19-2012, 02:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
Better idea still: Make engineering consoles less pathetic, and actually give them straight out percentage values like tac consoles and have them cap at X% (which I know they already do, so keep that).
That still fails to balance healing from ship to ship, hull healing on cruisers is too low because it is a fixed number (Based on certain factors, max hull not being one) and as such you have to find a balance where cruiser healing is enough while not making escort healing too good.

Make all healing a percentage of maximum X stat (Hull, shield etc.) then apply whatever variables and cruiser healing is good and escort healing not so good.

With regard to consoles, flekh and I proved in this thread that tac consoles, like eng consoles suffer diminishing returns, what I would like to see is the damage output from NPCs made reasonable so that engineering consoles feel like they have some effect rather than being overwhelmed in 1 hit.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,072
# 33
11-20-2012, 05:58 AM
It is official, I have to my satisfaction found that an escort will out-tank a cruiser for high end challenging PvE gameplay.

Assumption: If the encounters are so difficult that a dedicated tank is required then so will be a dedicated healer. In addition efficiency will become the deciding factor in tanking capacity. Otherwise anyone could just cross-heal with a few copies of standard abilities.

Tank Goal: To hold agro and to be capable of mitigating/avoiding more damage than anyone else.

Abilities: A combination of Emergency Power to Shields 1, Extend Shields 1, Transfer Shield Strength 1, combined with a maco shield and 125 shield power grants a ship 73% shield resists vs Plasma. 75% is the cap and the only ability listed there that needs to be on the tank would be the Epower. In addition any of those skills could be used at a higher rank to close that gap a bit. That makes the deciding factor between the cruiser or escort in tanking capacity the bonus defense score, and the escort wins that contest. In addition they would be better at holding agro and with a combination of attack pattern delta and omega be even better at mitigating damage and debuffing the enemy at the same time. Sadly a Tac captian would be better as the escort tanker due to the ability to keep the above two attack patterns active during difficult encounters and being more capable of holding agro as well. Finally while you would assume a cruiser would be the default healer for this role that would be a mistake as well, a Sci Vessel would do just as well if not better.

Best Tank = Steamrunner (2x Epower, 2x RSP)
Runner Up = Fleet Patrol
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,072
# 34
11-20-2012, 06:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
That still fails to balance healing from ship to ship, hull healing on cruisers is too low because it is a fixed number (Based on certain factors, max hull not being one) and as such you have to find a balance where cruiser healing is enough while not making escort healing too good.

Make all healing a percentage of maximum X stat (Hull, shield etc.) then apply whatever variables and cruiser healing is good and escort healing not so good.

With regard to consoles, flekh and I proved in this thread that tac consoles, like eng consoles suffer diminishing returns, what I would like to see is the damage output from NPCs made reasonable so that engineering consoles feel like they have some effect rather than being overwhelmed in 1 hit.
No they do not have diminishing returns, each one adds a FLAT amount to the damage. Always have always will, granted they do function similarly to eng consoles as far as the damage increase being measured as a % goes but that is not the same thing. Granted they do mirror the increase of EHP that eng consoles give also measured as a % and its why eng consoles must have diminishing returns or things get broken.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 165
# 35
11-21-2012, 08:05 AM
I don't think cruisers are underpowered in general. Okay the old assault cruiser and star cruisers were a bit lacking but the newer hulls certainly aren't.

A cruiser will usually not outdamage an escort ship, as least on single targets, but in a target rich environment they are not that far behind in total numbers. The strength of cruisers is simply that they not only deal some damage but unlike escorts, can also withstand some punishment.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 62
# 36
11-22-2012, 07:20 AM
I don't find that cruisers are under powered, they do an amazing job of tanking and healing, I think the problem really lies in the complete LACK of Tac options.

For both the science and engineering consoles you have several different viable options available for every ship but only one, MAYBE two, tactical. In addition, these consoles were originally balanced around massive diminishing returns and a max of 4 consoles per ship, both of these are things of the past.

I'd really like to see some variation introduced into the tactical consoles and some serious diminishing returns on the current damage consoles. I'm really not sure why there aren't base tactical consoles for things like Accuracy, Crit-H/Crit-D, or Increased Proc chance, anything to add some new options.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,072
# 37
11-22-2012, 10:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascaladar View Post
I don't think cruisers are underpowered in general. Okay the old assault cruiser and star cruisers were a bit lacking but the newer hulls certainly aren't.

A cruiser will usually not outdamage an escort ship, as least on single targets, but in a target rich environment they are not that far behind in total numbers. The strength of cruisers is simply that they not only deal some damage but unlike escorts, can also withstand some punishment.
A standard cruiser will never out damage an escort ship. And they can withstand exactly 10% more damage than an escort typically which is in reality a wash because the escort will get hit 10% less often. There is a minor difference thanks to the console arrangements but in the end any more than 3 armor consoles gets silly. So no, they cannot, by virtue of being a cruiser, take much more punishment. They do have a tendency to have more engineering boff slots that can be used for that purpose but that is not the ship, it is the boff abilities. Meanwhile the escort wins on damage because of its capability to pack dual cannons, console layout, and ability to have good positioning in addition to its tac boffs.



Quote:
Originally Posted by wackywombat View Post
I don't find that cruisers are under powered, they do an amazing job of tanking and healing, I think the problem really lies in the complete LACK of Tac options.

For both the science and engineering consoles you have several different viable options available for every ship but only one, MAYBE two, tactical. In addition, these consoles were originally balanced around massive diminishing returns and a max of 4 consoles per ship, both of these are things of the past.

I'd really like to see some variation introduced into the tactical consoles and some serious diminishing returns on the current damage consoles. I'm really not sure why there aren't base tactical consoles for things like Accuracy, Crit-H/Crit-D, or Increased Proc chance, anything to add some new options.
The current damage consoles are not the sole reason for the cruiser's current status as 'underpowered'. And they are not even the best tanks, nor healers that would be escorts and a handful of sci vessels in PvE not that either role is required in the slightest for it anyway. Lets compare them this way:

Cruiser
+Hull HP
Pretty much not a factor. 10% hull hp will not save your bacon, resists and heals will.
-Turn Rate & Speed
This is huge. Makes bonus defense harder to get, makes combat positioning more difficult, and in the end is extremely annoying.
+ 1 Weapon Slot
This is a wash thanks to weapon drain mechanics and ends up being next to useless most of the time.

Escort
+Turn Rate & Speed
+Bonus Defense
This is mitigation. The more damage you avoid/resist/mitigate the less damage that needs healed. Due to this factor the escort can and will out-tank a cruiser with a dedicated healer if this was a standard MMO trinity style.
+Dual Cannons
While this has been the 'go-to' thing to slap on every new ship it is still primarily an escort feature (and battlecruiser) and I don't think I need to go into details on it.
-Shield HP/Regen
While this does hurt to a point in the end 10% will not save you. As I have stated before resists are what matters not total shield amount. And in the end a Transfer Shield Strength boff ability used on an escort heals the same amount as it would on a cruiser.

Science Vessel
+Shield HP
+Sensor Scan
+Subsystem Targeting
-Hull HP
-1 Weapon
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,708
# 38
11-22-2012, 11:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
That makes the deciding factor between the cruiser or escort in tanking capacity the bonus defense score, and the escort wins that contest. In addition they would be better at holding agro and with a combination of attack pattern delta and omega be even better at mitigating damage and debuffing the enemy at the same time.
I don't know what game you're playing, but my cruiser already uses APO and APD.

Also, I don't know if you're familiar with the concept of uptime (all you new kids and teenyboopers that never did proper WoW raids never seem to take it into consideration) but an escort ziping around like a bee is not going to be doing much of anything DPS-wise, while a cruiser can simply do circles around its target never letting up the damage.

But, if you insist that escorts are the best tanks, feel free to fly on and try serious tanking.

P.S. If your cruiser isn't ranking up the threat talent you're doing it wrong!

P.S. x 2. If you're a cruiser enthusiast that STILL feels wronged might I direct you to the KDF cruiser selection? Their cruisers are generally acknowledged to be the best and more fun to fly.

Last edited by skyranger1414; 11-22-2012 at 11:25 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,395
# 39
11-22-2012, 11:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
This is mitigation. The more damage you avoid/resist/mitigate the less damage that needs healed. Due to this factor the escort can and will out-tank a cruiser with a dedicated healer if this was a standard MMO trinity style.
No kidding! Now how do you think that cruiser will tank if he had a dedicated healer on his six-o-clock too? Trying to kill a whole team of cruisers that know what they're doing is an absolute nightmare.

Escorts are not the be-all end-all you seem to think they are and snoozers are far from useless, in fact the stronger your opponents, the less you'll see escorts, because they tend to become more of a liability than an asset. From what I understand of STO's history this used to be even worse in the past, and given how many anti-escort strategies there are out there right now I thank my lucky stars every game for having a healer to keep me safe.

In all honesty I'm still convinced that people have a poor impression of snoozers simply because the overwhelming majority of players, good and bad, gravitate towards them.

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Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,072
# 40
11-23-2012, 06:04 AM
Both an escort and cruiser with a dedicated support/healer can hit the shield resistance cap. That means the only variance in damage mitigation is the bonus defense score, or avoidance. Keep in mind I am speaking from a purely optimal point of view assuming that STO actually had content that put out enough damage to require a true dedicated tank like some think STO should have. Once again it does not have any content that would require or desire that style of play PvE.

PvP is a completely different beast due to the human factor. In PvP with burst being king along with focus fire and the fact that a human is intelligent enough to not shoot the tank but instead the person that is healing/buffing the tank the entire metagame changes and having buffer tank becomes more useful. As does having a healer who is tanky.

The fact remains, however, that as a ship hull a cruiser does not inherently have any additional tanking capacity over an escort beyond having a more engineering heavy boff layout that tends to increase the quantity of healing and resist abilities on the ship. At the same time the escort does have inherent qualities that increase it's own damage output those being the increased weapons power, dual cannons, and a higher maneuverability and speed that allow it to keep favorable positioning.

That means that cruisers are 'under-powered' in the PvE aspect of the game. Not useless, not junk, underpowered. As in 'not as good' as other ships. Once again I am referring to cruisers, not battle cruisers nor dreadnaughts.

And the simple reason for that is the role they find themselves filling in PvE. That is as a hybrid. They are a mix of damage, tank, and support/healing. Hybrids always tend to be underpowered in MMOs. This is complicated by the fact that every hull has hybrid qualities to an extend with the ability to self heal, tank, etc. It is just that the escort is capable of packing just enough self heal/tank with boffs/gear to get the job done and the cruiser need to pack the same amount.

Strangely enough as well in the end the proper Science Ship does make the best self-sustaining tank. Or tank without a healer backup that is. This is thanks to the much higher self regeneration capability of the vessel, along with an improved capacity to still fill a very useful role with various CC abilities. For you see while it does lack a bit of hull buffer compared to the cruiser it does having a much higher shield regeneration capability.

And I do fly battlecruisers I do not find them to be underpowered. Mostly due to the turn rate and DHC factor.
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