Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 546
# 41
11-23-2012, 07:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyranger1414 View Post
I don't know what game you're playing, but my cruiser already uses APO and APD.

Also, I don't know if you're familiar with the concept of uptime (all you new kids and teenyboopers that never did proper WoW raids never seem to take it into consideration) but an escort ziping around like a bee is not going to be doing much of anything DPS-wise, while a cruiser can simply do circles around its target never letting up the damage.

But, if you insist that escorts are the best tanks, feel free to fly on and try serious tanking.

P.S. If your cruiser isn't ranking up the threat talent you're doing it wrong!

P.S. x 2. If you're a cruiser enthusiast that STILL feels wronged might I direct you to the KDF cruiser selection? Their cruisers are generally acknowledged to be the best and more fun to fly.
This would be true if the escort HAD to be zipping around like a bee to stay alive. Instead it is actually common practice for the Escort to park it's butt right in front of the target and just unload while cycling TT1 and the occasional shield heal. While much more effective as a tactic for an Engineering captain the damage boosts available to a Tac mean that most enemies are dead before you are even if you do take a much higher amount of damage.

As for your comment about speccing into threat control? Aside from being offensive in the extreme (you do not sound as if you actually PLAY cruisers much) it is a waste of skill points in its current position on the skill tree. Would you support having it's position swapped with Attack Patterns if it meant more cruiser captains wold be speccing into it? (as 1,000 skill points per level is much less of a burden than 2,500 per)
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,651
# 42
11-23-2012, 10:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by canis36 View Post
As for your comment about speccing into threat control? Aside from being offensive in the extreme (you do not sound as if you actually PLAY cruisers much) it is a waste of skill points in its current position on the skill tree.
I'm sorry, you have just proven you have no idea of what a tanking cruiser is supposed to DO. The threat control skill is possibly the MOST important skill points you can spend for a tanking captain because its what allows tanking to occur. Otherwise how do you plan to hold agro? You're not going to out-dps an escort (or possibly even a sci vessel). So if you're not tanking you just became a healing cruiser.... how well can tanking cruisers heal will depend on the build but if you want to tank it won't be satisfactory.

A cruiser is not valued for its DPS alone, a cruiser is valued because it allows escorts and sci vessels to totally ruin an NPCs day with impunity. If you're not doing that, your tanking cruiser is simply not doing its job. A healing cruiser can work differently but they usually also tank or DPS.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 153
# 43
11-23-2012, 11:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyranger1414 View Post
I'm sorry, you have just proven you have no idea of what a tanking cruiser is supposed to DO. The threat control skill is possibly the MOST important skill points you can spend for a tanking captain because its what allows tanking to occur. Otherwise how do you plan to hold agro? You're not going to out-dps an escort (or possibly even a sci vessel). So if you're not tanking you just became a healing cruiser.... how well can tanking cruisers heal will depend on the build but if you want to tank it won't be satisfactory.

A cruiser is not valued for its DPS alone, a cruiser is valued because it allows escorts and sci vessels to totally ruin an NPCs day with impunity. If you're not doing that, your tanking cruiser is simply not doing its job. A healing cruiser can work differently but they usually also tank or DPS.
Cruisers where never meant to "tank" in the trinity sense. The threat control was added after the change to skill trees. A cruiser doesnt have to take the extra threat skill as each ship class has plenty of options to keep their survivability high. Escorts have high maneuverability and turn rate to maintain high defence and dps.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,802
# 44
11-23-2012, 11:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyranger1414 View Post
I'm sorry, you have just proven you have no idea of what a tanking cruiser is supposed to DO. The threat control skill is possibly the MOST important skill points you can spend for a tanking captain because its what allows tanking to occur. Otherwise how do you plan to hold agro? You're not going to out-dps an escort (or possibly even a sci vessel). So if you're not tanking you just became a healing cruiser.... how well can tanking cruisers heal will depend on the build but if you want to tank it won't be satisfactory.

A cruiser is not valued for its DPS alone, a cruiser is valued because it allows escorts and sci vessels to totally ruin an NPCs day with impunity. If you're not doing that, your tanking cruiser is simply not doing its job. A healing cruiser can work differently but they usually also tank or DPS.
So your proposal/stance is that a cruiser is just fine because they can tank without a healer in endgame PvE group encounters. That is false for several reasons.

1) Tank what for whom? Any decently built ship can handle anything end game pve can throw at it without a 'dedicated' tank in the group. This is especially true when people cross-heal.

2) A Science Vessel can fill that role better than a cruiser.

3) An Escort can fill that role just as well as a cruiser.

4) A heal-boat would be more useful than a tank typically.

What does the cruiser ship hull itself have that helps it self tank? Nothing beyond Engineering boff slots which can be found on other hull types if desired. The two important factors that matter for self tanking are simple, how much damage can you mitigate via resists and bonus defense, and how much self healing/sustain are you capable of. The cruiser hull does not have an advantage in either of those categories. In addition they have a much more difficult time establishing and maintaining proper positioning and thanks to crew mechanics suffer from those as well.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,651
# 45
11-23-2012, 12:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chi1701d View Post
Cruisers where never meant to "tank" in the trinity sense. .....
I agree, the system STO uses is a very loose one where you can do all content without "needing" any one class, but specific ship classes are better at their specialties than others. Cruisers are clearly designed to lean towards damage mitigation/absorption. Personally I prefer this design philosophy over a hard trinity like you might find in WoW.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
So your proposal/stance is that a cruiser is just fine because they can tank without a healer in endgame PvE group encounters. That is false for several reasons.

1) Tank what for whom? Any decently built ship can handle anything end game pve can throw at it without a 'dedicated' tank in the group. This is especially true when people cross-heal.

"dedicated" DPS like escorts and "dedicated" CC like Sci ships are not specifically needed either... this is actually a strength of the design Cryptic has used.

2) A Science Vessel can fill that role better than a cruiser.

What? We will just have to agree to disagree on that one. My Sci cap in a Sci Vessel is still too new for me to comment on this, but from what I know so far this is pretty much flat out wrong.

3) An Escort can fill that role just as well as a cruiser.

Not "just as well". Have you piloted both types of ships? I have, there's no way I can say my escort is as tanky as my cruiser. Bear in mind I build my ships to be as independent as survivable as possible, and I tell you.. my cruiser tanks better.

4) A heal-boat would be more useful than a tank typically.

A heal boat can allow an escort to tank with almost no risk... but a tanky cruiser can tank and heal itself much more easily. Different playing styles I'd say.

What does the cruiser ship hull itself have that helps it self tank? Nothing beyond Engineering boff slots

and a better shield mod if memory serves.... and those extra Eng Boff slots are HUGE for survivability, which again, is the cruiser's specialty. If all you care about is out DPS-ing an escort you're doing it wrong
Added a few things in green.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 546
# 46
11-23-2012, 01:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyranger1414 View Post
I'm sorry, you have just proven you have no idea of what a tanking cruiser is supposed to DO. The threat control skill is possibly the MOST important skill points you can spend for a tanking captain because its what allows tanking to occur. Otherwise how do you plan to hold agro? You're not going to out-dps an escort (or possibly even a sci vessel). So if you're not tanking you just became a healing cruiser.... how well can tanking cruisers heal will depend on the build but if you want to tank it won't be satisfactory.

A cruiser is not valued for its DPS alone, a cruiser is valued because it allows escorts and sci vessels to totally ruin an NPCs day with impunity. If you're not doing that, your tanking cruiser is simply not doing its job. A healing cruiser can work differently but they usually also tank or DPS.
As to what a tanking cruiser is supposed to do? Not have fun In seriousness I do know what a TANK is supposed to do, it's supposed sit there and take it up the ass while everybody else does damage. It is, quite frankly, a boring thing to do and I, like most cruiser pilots, fly them because we either like the look of the ships, want to fly the Enterprise, or both. What bugs us is that when we try to do anything OTHER than tank or heal we have people telling us to either get lost or get an escort. And a lot of the time we get the same reaction even when we do try to fill the tank/healer role because there's really not much use for it in the endgame content. You can argue the point, but when the optimal solution to a mission is to have five escorts specced for raw firepower a tank/healer is completely superfluous.

Actually skill points put into threat control are wasted, at least in skill tree's current form because those skill points can be used to greater effect in other places and putting even three points into that skill is 7500 that can be used elsewhere to buff various subsystems, science skills, shield strength or healing, hull strength or healing, critical damage and hit chance, or just straight damage.

It's not so much that Threat Control is a bad skill, but that the return on investment into the skill is so very, very low that any benefit is massively outstripped by the penalties of skilling into Threat Control as opposed to virtually any other skill you could name.

I'll also note you said absolutely nothing about my thought that Threat Control and Attack Patterns should be swapped to encourage people to skill into Threat Control by reducing the opportunity cost of taking points into Threat Control. It's almost as if you think that making it less of a burden to skill into Threat Control is a bad idea? Or is it that you don't want to have to pay more for a boost to your nifty and powerful attack patterns, skills that only escorts/raptors/BoPs can truly use to effect?

Last edited by canis36; 11-23-2012 at 01:38 PM.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 99
# 47
11-23-2012, 01:53 PM
I did spend the points on Threat Control because I do tank, and wanted to take the heat off our escorts while they did what they are specced to do, incinerate the enemy. I don't put out anywhere near the firepower they do, and that, in our team, isn't my job. I keep the escorts flying and delivering the hurt. Have you ever tried boosting an escort with EPS Transfer 3 right before they delivered an alpha strike? Or a Sci when it's about to dump a Gravity Well? That will get even a tactical cube's attention. I also dump warp plasma and radiation clouds, after our science officer has immobilized a cluster of enemies with a gravity well or Tyken's Rift. Then the aforementioned escorts come in and it's cleanup on Aisle 3.

tl;dr Get a consistent group of people you can work with and know your role!
"Susse-thrai" had been the name bestowed upon her, half in anger, half in affection, by her old crew on Bloodwing; the keen-nosed, cranky, wily old she-beast, never less dangerous than when you thought her defenseless, and always growing new teeth far back in her throat to replace the old ones broken in biting out the last foe's heart.
Romulans: left one homeworld, lost another, third time's the charm?
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,395
# 48
11-23-2012, 02:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sussethrai View Post
I did spend the points on Threat Control because I do tank, and wanted to take the heat off our escorts while they did what they are specced to do, incinerate the enemy. I don't put out anywhere near the firepower they do, and that, in our team, isn't my job. I keep the escorts flying and delivering the hurt. Have you ever tried boosting an escort with EPS Transfer 3 right before they delivered an alpha strike? Or a Sci when it's about to dump a Gravity Well? That will get even a tactical cube's attention. I also dump warp plasma and radiation clouds, after our science officer has immobilized a cluster of enemies with a gravity well or Tyken's Rift. Then the aforementioned escorts come in and it's cleanup on Aisle 3.

tl;dr Get a consistent group of people you can work with and know your role!
^^^^ This guy knows what's up. Listen and learn, folks.

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Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,802
# 49
11-23-2012, 02:11 PM
I will try this one last time for you Skyranger. Tanking is about avoiding taking damage, or healing away the damage when you do not have someone else healing you.

An Escort will take less damage in a fight than a cruiser. This is because of it's higher bonus defense score.

A Science Vessel will heal more damage in a fight than a cruiser. This is because of it's higher shield modifier.

Now it is true that engineering boff abilities tend to be really good at healing and resisting damage. It is also true that cruisers tend to have more of these than any other hull. But that is the boff ability that is granting it tank not the ship.

Any escort that has a few engineering boff slots for things like Emergency Power to Shields and the like and maintains a high speed will be able to tank just as well, if not better, than the cruiser would. The only reason the cruiser could out-do it would be it could have a higher tier of Epower to shields active that grants more resistance to make the increased avoidance of the escort a wash. Try flying an escort tank sometime for kicks it will really open your eyes I would think.

Any science vessel that has a few engineering boff slots can do the same exact thing. Except they will passively regenerate more shields than the cruiser would.

Do not confuse what the ship type adds, and what the boff abilities add. The simple fact is an escort is better at avoiding damage than the cruiser, and the science vessel is better at regenerating than the cruiser leaving the cruiser with nothing but a bit more hull that in the end has no true bearing on the ability to tank. In most MMOs the warrior is not the tank because he has the most hit points. It is because he is the best at a combination of reducing and avoiding incoming damage. The cruiser ships themselves do not do this in any way, shape, or form.

Also keep in mind I am talking about a small difference. It is plainly obvious that Cryptic does not care one bit about ships being truely balanced they just want them close enough. Otherwise either the Vesta is over powered or nearly every other Sci Vessel is under powered. That is the level of disparity that bothers me, although it is a bit more of a disparity between standard cruiser hulls and escorts IMHO.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 346
# 50
11-23-2012, 05:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
I will try this one last time for you Skyranger. Tanking is about avoiding taking damage, or healing away the damage when you do not have someone else healing you.

An Escort will take less damage in a fight than a cruiser. This is because of it's higher bonus defense score.

A Science Vessel will heal more damage in a fight than a cruiser. This is because of it's higher shield modifier.

Now it is true that engineering boff abilities tend to be really good at healing and resisting damage. It is also true that cruisers tend to have more of these than any other hull. But that is the boff ability that is granting it tank not the ship.
An Escort will deal less damage in a fight than a Cruiser. This is because of its (<- pay attention) lower number of Weapons.

Now, it's true that Tactical BOFF abilities tend to be really good at DDing and it is no less true that Escorts do tend to have more of these than any other Ship type; but that is inherent to the BOFF ability, not to ship.
(wow, typing that reductio ad absurdum made me realise: you really hate commas!)


The claim that Cruisers can take less punishment than Escorts or SVs is ludicrous. Ok, ok some SVs built purely for tanking can indeed survive extremely well (especially with an Eng Captain), mostly because of the Field Generator issue: stick 5 of those things on a Ship, add heals/resists (of which Sci isn't short on) and you've got a "tough little Ship".

But:
1. That Ship can only tank/heal, no CC - it's a pseudocruiser more than a SV at that point.
2. If those outtank Cruisers (not sure, never formally tested), the problem lies squarely in stacking Field Gens.

Escorts on the other hand? No, just no.
SVs that actually try to CC/debuff? No.
I play (welll, played, been away the last few weeks) all types of Ships and Captains and I can tell you, my Escorts and SVs are a lot more fragile than my Cruisers. Even Tac/Cruiser.


You dismiss a 11% advantage in Shields as meaningless, a ~26% advantage in Hull as meaningless, many more survivability-oriented BOFFs as somehow irrelevant and blow a small (70% vs 60%) Defense advantage way out of proportion, that practice has a name: intellectual dishonesty.

Another bit of intellectual dishonesty you keep exhibiting: if you've ever played this game, you know that the Escorts never have the best Defense in practice: an Escort/front-firing SV that keeps its Defense maxxed isn't pointing its Cannons/DBBs/Torpedoes on targets for very long, therefore not doing much damage; a Cruiser/broadside SV can keep its Arrays on target while maintaining its Defense.


Edit: lol at whoever claimed Threat Control is a waste.

Last edited by quiscustodiet; 11-23-2012 at 05:42 PM.
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