Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,086
# 51
11-23-2012, 06:26 PM
Incorrect on a few accounts.

Because of how energy drain heavily impacts DPS the 8th weapon slot of a cruiser is typically a waste. And yes I do entirely dismiss the hull advantage because it only adds a bit more buffer which is not that important in the long run if the damage output is high enough to require a tank. On the other hand an escorts increased maneuverability and speed combined with the ability to mount dual cannons will by itself allow it to out damage the cruiser. That is before boffs are considered. The only aspect that is important is the higher shield multiplier that does grant the cruiser a slightly higher passive shield regeneration rate I will grant you that but it does not outweigh the bonus defense.

When tanking your maximum health is not the most important factor, infact it typically is not even a factor other than it needs to be high enough for you to live long enough for the heals to begin working their magic. What does matter is how much incoming damage you can mitigate with resistances or avoidance. When you have to tank 10k or 20k raw DPS having an extra 6k hull points is not going to mean squat. What will matter is if you can reduce that incoming damage by 3/4ths with your resistance and then by 1/4th with your bonus defense. Why is that so difficult to understand?

And for the idea that a science vessel or escort is wasting its potential by being setup as a tank just makes me laugh. If that is the case then any ship being setup as a tank is a waste, which is true. But even if it were not the cruiser would not be the best tank. The best self sustaining tank would be the Science Vessel and the best tank with a healer would be an escort. Yes it is true they would not be putting out their standard DPS or CCs with those setups but that would not be the role that they would be filling in the group. So if you think such a setup for those ships is silly now you know how I find your tank cruiser. Although I do personally enjoy silly setups and fly many myself so that is not meant as an insult you should fly what you enjoy I just want them to be more effective is all. I want the cruiser to have an advantage as the tank.

*edit add*
Just to illustrate what I mean by I enjoy silly setups I have flown a tank escort, Torpedo boats of all types, energy drain/support escorts, dps cruisers, support cruisers, every type of sci setup I could before they would end up getting nerfed, pretty much the only builds I haven't had much experience with are bomber/mine builds. It just saddens me that with the ship sale going I would love to buy the regent but cannot bring myself to do so as I know it will never be flown. I have a galor, I find it lacking and I know the regent is even weaker.

Last edited by bareel; 11-23-2012 at 06:33 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,708
# 52
11-23-2012, 06:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
I will try this one last time for you Skyranger. Tanking is about avoiding taking damage, or healing away the damage when you do not have someone else healing you.
You're proving you really don't understand what tanking is about either. The idea is not only to be unkillable and keep yourself alive.... you ALSO need to HOLD AGRO. If you're not HOLDING AGRO all your invincibleness is wasted. So you end up with a super tough ship that isn't taking advantage of its most beneficial traits because it never gets targetted! If you do end up getting targetted at all it probably happens when the escort that was actually tanking finally pops and the NPC baddies look for other targets.

How often do we hear this very same incorrect statement "tanking is about not getting killed"? How is it that holding agro is missed so often?


Quote:
Originally Posted by canis36 View Post
.......... What bugs us is that when we try to do anything OTHER than tank or heal we have people telling us to either get lost or get an escort. And a lot of the time we get the same reaction even when we do try to fill the tank/healer role because there's really not much use for it in the endgame content. You can argue the point, but when the optimal solution to a mission is to have five escorts specced for raw firepower a tank/healer is completely superfluous.
I can honestly say I've done hundreds of ESTFs and I've only seen anyone critrisize another player once, and I've never done it myself. That's the true beauty of the design Cryptic has made, you don't NEED to have optimal builds to get through anything. So if you want to play a non tanking cruiser... more power to you, you can still get through anything. You must realize though, that you are purposevely NOT using your ship's strengths, and therefore you will be comparatively underpowered when you compare yourself against others that DO try to play to their ship's strengths.



Quote:
Originally Posted by canis36 View Post
Actually skill points put into threat control are wasted, at least in skill tree's current form because those skill points can be used to greater effect in other places and putting even three points into that skill is 7500 that can be used elsewhere to buff various subsystems, science skills, shield strength or healing, hull strength or healing, critical damage and hit chance, or just straight damage.
... like I said above, if you choose to ignore your ship's tanking potential you are wasting a lot of your ship. You can do it and still contribute, but don't expect to be as amazing at content as people that build to their ship's strengths.


Quote:
Originally Posted by canis36 View Post
I'll also note you said absolutely nothing about my thought that Threat Control and Attack Patterns should be swapped to encourage people to skill into Threat Control by reducing the opportunity cost of taking points into Threat Control. It's almost as if you think that making it less of a burden to skill into Threat Control is a bad idea? Or is it that you don't want to have to pay more for a boost to your nifty and powerful attack patterns, skills that only escorts/raptors/BoPs can truly use to effect?
I didn't comment on this because I was hoping you might catch on as to WHY its done that way. You are looking at attack patterns, but fail to realize that not only escorts use them. Every ship and captain type should at least consider taking that skill. If it had a higher opportunity cost how many Sci Vessel and Cruiser pilots would take them? Its like asking why are shield systems so low?.... the answer is the same, so that everyone takes it!

Looking beyond that, the threat skill is pretty much on its own. You don't need to spec into several skills to hold agro. This is done by DESIGN so that players like you that choose to fly non-tanking cruisers can do so. Compare that to something like survivability or damage dealing that are spread over several skills. As to why its so high up on the tree.... its THE defining skill for a tanking ship, by itself it enables tanking builds to fulfill half of their primary functions, it even adds a resistance bonus! I see nothing wrong with it being so high up.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sussethrai View Post
I did spend the points on Threat Control because I do tank, and wanted to take the heat off our escorts while they did what they are specced to do, incinerate the enemy. I don't put out anywhere near the firepower they do, and that, in our team, isn't my job. I keep the escorts flying and delivering the hurt. Have you ever tried boosting an escort with EPS Transfer 3 right before they delivered an alpha strike? Or a Sci when it's about to dump a Gravity Well? That will get even a tactical cube's attention. I also dump warp plasma and radiation clouds, after our science officer has immobilized a cluster of enemies with a gravity well or Tyken's Rift. Then the aforementioned escorts come in and it's cleanup on Aisle 3.

tl;dr Get a consistent group of people you can work with and know your role!
We need more tank pilots like you! Too many try to fly their cruisers like.... pre-aircraft carrier battleships and the game just isn't built like that. I know its a little heartbreaking to realize the giant uber cruisers aren't so ultimate at everything but that hardly means cruisers are useless. It just means people need to learn how to play them.

Last edited by skyranger1414; 11-24-2012 at 07:54 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,048
# 53
11-23-2012, 06:53 PM
Can we please just agree on 1 thing?

It's in the interests of the CASUAL player for cruisers to get a slight DPS boost just so it's easier for casuals to compete in a DPS race.

Cryptic screwed up their ships, we all know this, the evidence is the fact that we all know we're playing in the remnants of balance

Ok I said 2 things but they are both equally valid points
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,086
# 54
11-23-2012, 07:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
Can we please just agree on 1 thing?

It's in the interests of the CASUAL player for cruisers to get a slight DPS boost just so it's easier for casuals to compete in a DPS race.

Cryptic screwed up their ships, we all know this, the evidence is the fact that we all know we're playing in the remnants of balance

Ok I said 2 things but they are both equally valid points
I agree that they need an overall boost yes. I think the best method would be for them to use 40 or 45 energy as a base instead of 50 for subsystem power bonuses.

That would strait up increase their DPS a tad, tank, support, heal, speed, turn rate, well everything. But just by a tad which should be enough.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 619
# 55
11-23-2012, 11:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyranger1414 View Post
I can honestly say I've done hundreds of ESTFs and I've only seen anyone critrisize another player once, and I've never done it myself. That's the true beauty of the design Cryptic has made, you don't NEED to have optimal builds to get through anything. So if you want to play a non tanking cruiser... more power to you, you can still get through anything. You must realize though, that you are purposevely NOT using your ship's strengths, and therefore you will be comparatively underpowered when you compare yourself against others that DO try to play to their ship's strengths.
It's funny you should mention STFs, especially ESTFs. I've played them in a tanky cruiser that did in fact have points skilled into Threat Control before. My performance suffered there. I struggled to contribute in any kind of meaningful way and was more hindrance than help. Part of it was inexperience, I'll admit that, but part of it was also that those missions are not designed with tanking in mind. I'm struggling to think of any part of them where a ship that does little but draw fire and soak damage makes any kind of appreciable contribution and I'm having a great deal of difficulty coming up with anything other than the Donatra boss fight.




Quote:
Originally Posted by skyranger1414 View Post
... like I said above, if you choose to ignore your ship's tanking potential you are wasting a lot of your ship. You can do it and still contribute, but don't expect to be as amazing at content as people that build to their ship's strengths.
Have really said all I can on this particular one above.



Quote:
Originally Posted by skyranger1414 View Post
I didn't comment on this because I was hoping you might catch on as to WHY its done that way. You are looking at attack patterns, but fail to realize that not only escorts use them. Every ship and captain type should at least consider taking that skill. If it had a higher opportunity cost how many Sci Vessel and Cruiser pilots would take them? Its like asking why are shield systems so low?.... the answer is the same, so that everyone takes it!
Actually I do use attack patterns on ships other than escorts/raptors. They're just that powerful, even at Level 1 which is the highest you're going to have access to if you don't fly an escort/raptor or dish out real money to pay for C-Store ships (and even from those you're limited to three cruisers fed side and one KDF side) that can utilize a level two. And that's the reason why I feel it should be higher on the skill tree. Attack Patterns ARE powerful and they're limited to higher level slots (Lt. Power at minimum & all of them have at least one level that's a Commander power).

As for Shield Systems being low, you're right. It's a no brainer power. A straight up boost to shield HP? You'd be crazy to pass that up. And since every ship has shields then it makes sense to make it available at lower levels.

A better comparison would have been Starship Shield Emitters which improves the performance of shield heals. The powers that this skill boosts all have Level 1 versions as Ensign powers. They're powerful, potent, and more importantly accessible. The most powerful versions are reserved for Science or Engineering ships yes, but you can still get multiples on any ship even if it's just stacking a Level 1 and Level 2 in the same Bridge Officer slot. You can't do that in anything but an Escort or Raptor unless, again, you want to pay real money for a C-Store ship.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skyranger1414 View Post
Looking beyond that, the threat skill is pretty much on its own. You don't need to spec into several skills to hold agro. This is done by DESIGN so that players like you that choose to fly non-tanking cruisers can do so. Compare that to something like survivability or damage dealing that are spread over several skills. As to why its so high up on the tree.... its THE defining skill for a tanking ship, by itself it enables tanking builds to fulfill half of their primary functions, it even adds a resistance bonus! I see nothing wrong with it being so high up.
That damage resistance bonus? Not even close to worth it, especially when Starship Hull Plating is on the same level in the skill tree. I don't really see anything untrue with what you're saying...I just continue to disagree with you that Threat Control is where it needs to be on the skill tree. And I have no doubt I'll continue to disagree, so I'll like as not leave it at this. Thanks for keeping this a pretty civil discussion though. It has given me some food for thought, but not enough to change my mind
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,708
# 56
11-24-2012, 08:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by canis36 View Post
It's funny you should mention STFs, especially ESTFs. I've played them in a tanky cruiser that did in fact have points skilled into Threat Control before. My performance suffered there. I struggled to contribute in any kind of meaningful way and was more hindrance than help.
Inexperience has a significant effect. What you want to do is to get to a point where you can balance out holding agro, survivability, and damage dealing. My own cruiser tends to be the least survivable it needs to be while still managing to hold agro, everything else goes into DPSing. Unless its an emergency I always keep my weapon power maxed out.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,037
# 57
11-24-2012, 08:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyranger1414 View Post
Inexperience has a significant effect. What you want to do is to get to a point where you can balance out holding agro, survivability, and damage dealing. My own cruiser tends to be the least survivable it needs to be while still managing to hold agro, everything else goes into DPSing. Unless its an emergency I always keep my weapon power maxed out.
exactly what i do with my oddy build. i have an engi so certain heals are already there...which means i can further focus on dmg abilites. Now the oddy is perfect for this, since you hae the opportunity to have one ship that is capable of doing it all, just by switching boffs.
Not every ship is suited for that, so the ship choice is essential to begin with. since some are just made for tank/support and not for tank/DD
Go pro or go home
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,086
# 58
11-24-2012, 09:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyranger1414 View Post
Inexperience has a significant effect. What you want to do is to get to a point where you can balance out holding agro, survivability, and damage dealing. My own cruiser tends to be the least survivable it needs to be while still managing to hold agro, everything else goes into DPSing. Unless its an emergency I always keep my weapon power maxed out.
Try parking your cruiser and trying out a beam array escort. Watch your capability to hold agro increase, loose no tanking capacity, and your DPS increase. You can even pack AP x2 to really help out those DPS machines of the group hit even harder. Or even jump into a Science Vessel and slap in a few shield regen consoles and see what happens. In reality the +skill science consoles are fairly weak sauce and not needed for most Sci abilities.

What your doing has very little (nearly nothing) to do with the ship hull and instead your boff abilities and flying style. The abilities being Epower to Shields 1, Hazard Emitters, and possibly another pair of tank abilities.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 49
# 59
11-26-2012, 09:41 AM
Cruisers suffer in the game because Escorts are nearly as tough yet pack so much more punch. Escorts are tough enough to survive everything in the game about as well as a cruiser. So why give up the very high damage and maneuverability for a cruiser? The main reason why Escorts are so tough is Tactical Team. I can't believe I haven't seen it come up in this thread (may have missed it).

This one ability turns any ship into a beast of a tank. And with two copies you've got 66% up-time with only a 5s window of downtime between TTs, during which your normal shields are able to hold. Plus TT makes your other shield heals better. Without TT, if only one shield facing has been damaged and you hit a shield heal, you're restoring one facing. With TT, you have re-balanced from 3 other facings so your shield heal has full effect on those 3 facings.

TT is so powerful that I do not fly a ship without 2 copies, be it escort, crusier, or sci. I only need rank one. If I only fit one, I slot 2 Purple Conn Officers to bring it down to cooldown. I can never take Eng Team or Sci Team, because the TT is so much better. I've run tank spec/build, and TT gives more to that end than ET. Which is too bad, since ET and ST are both great abilities on their own.

The auto shield rebalancing on TT needs to go. It should not be in the game anywhere (maybe a 2-3m cooldown somewhere). It's too powerful of an ability. It should be replaced with an offensive component besides the skill pluses.

Then the system cooldown between the teams should also be removed. I don't see a good balance reason for it, and all it does is severely limit build and action choices.

If TT had the shield balancing component removed, escorts would become a lot more fragile without the Eng and Sci slots to selfheal like a crusier or sci could. Then we would get the high DPS/low survivability of escorts back, and cruisers would do better due to the old "can't DPS while dead" maxim being restored.

Sweeping changes to the game aren't needed, just a few tweaks to key abilities that everyone relies on.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 619
# 60
11-26-2012, 09:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by caelrassto View Post
Cruisers suffer in the game because Escorts are nearly as tough yet pack so much more punch. Escorts are tough enough to survive everything in the game about as well as a cruiser. So why give up the very high damage and maneuverability for a cruiser? The main reason why Escorts are so tough is Tactical Team. I can't believe I haven't seen it come up in this thread (may have missed it).

This one ability turns any ship into a beast of a tank. And with two copies you've got 66% up-time with only a 5s window of downtime between TTs, during which your normal shields are able to hold. Plus TT makes your other shield heals better. Without TT, if only one shield facing has been damaged and you hit a shield heal, you're restoring one facing. With TT, you have re-balanced from 3 other facings so your shield heal has full effect on those 3 facings.

TT is so powerful that I do not fly a ship without 2 copies, be it escort, crusier, or sci. I only need rank one. If I only fit one, I slot 2 Purple Conn Officers to bring it down to cooldown. I can never take Eng Team or Sci Team, because the TT is so much better. I've run tank spec/build, and TT gives more to that end than ET. Which is too bad, since ET and ST are both great abilities on their own.

The auto shield rebalancing on TT needs to go. It should not be in the game anywhere (maybe a 2-3m cooldown somewhere). It's too powerful of an ability. It should be replaced with an offensive component besides the skill pluses.

Then the system cooldown between the teams should also be removed. I don't see a good balance reason for it, and all it does is severely limit build and action choices.

If TT had the shield balancing component removed, escorts would become a lot more fragile without the Eng and Sci slots to selfheal like a crusier or sci could. Then we would get the high DPS/low survivability of escorts back, and cruisers would do better due to the old "can't DPS while dead" maxim being restored.

Sweeping changes to the game aren't needed, just a few tweaks to key abilities that everyone relies on.
I...reluctantly must agree that removing the auto-balancing of shields from Tactical Team does seem to be the easiest way to rebalance things. That or adding the rebalancing effect to the other two teams, though that would make Science Team the go-to must have since shield heal+shield auto-balancing would be massively OP. Making it's removal from TT the only real way do it.

As for the shared cooldown? That should stay. Each Team power heals an entire class of debuffs/status conditions.
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