Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 734
# 91
11-26-2012, 10:06 AM
The dilithium exchange has now hit the lowest point (for zen) since it first started out with Season 5 back in December 2011.
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Commander
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 269
# 92
11-26-2012, 10:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by echodarksided View Post
In an MMO, minimum wage is universally described as a players "daily," not to be confused with the "Daily" as a system function in STO. That first hour you log in and perform a routine that accumulates Dilithium, DOFFs, Marks, etc... is in MMO economic design considered minimum wage.

Confusing that with minimum wage in real world economies would be a mistake. It is one of the big differences between MMO economics and real world economics, but in the end the economic impacts can be described similarly.

The Foundry daily "quickie" mission absolutely represented the biggest portion of minimum wage in STO for a vast number of players. It defined how wealth was previously accumulated on a per character basis. It represented an enormous bubble in the economy that no longer exists, not just for dilithium but fleet marks too. It hit my fleet, Jupiter Force, for around 3.5 million dilithium a week. It likely hit the economy as a whole for well over 3-4 hundred million a week.

The bubble has existed for a long time, and is part of all the economic data that they used to develop their season seven economic model. Absent a way (like DOFFs) that allows them to add hundreds of millions of Dilithium back into the economy via the minimum wage function of STO (the players daily), the economy will remain downsized... and at some point a system wide price adjustment will be required to address the new normal.
So what your saying is the vast majority of STO players are getting most of their income from a know exploit? Oh Dear. In short your just admitting your were exploited and are very sad that you cant. Also I find that offensive I have never used those missions, and I know many others who felt the same way. Maybe that was how most folks got dilithium in your fleet but must of ours comes from STFs and now FAs. We were deeply concerned at launch of S7 but now we are doing fine. Thanks.

Last edited by maliusnight; 11-26-2012 at 10:15 AM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 160
# 93
11-26-2012, 10:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maliusnight View Post
Or you could say, they closed a known exploited and shockingly require players to actually play the game. A terrible tragedy I know, whatever will those people with 12 alts do every day?
Factually false. Cryptic counted on abuse when they added 50 fleet marks to the Foundry Daily in season six. It was by their design, and they knew it at the time.

I am among those who are happy they have removed the abuse of the Foundry Daily mission, because it cheapened the Foundry long term as a content engine for the game.

The problem was the poor planning involved in the transition away from the Foundry Daily as an economic function in the game. Good that they got rid of it, but horrible how they made no adjustments at all to compensate for it's loss within the STO economy.

That goes for Dilithium and fleet marks.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 160
# 94
11-26-2012, 10:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maliusnight View Post
So what your saying is the vast majority of STO players are getting most of their income from a know exploit? Oh Dear. Maybe that was how most folks got dilithium in your fleet but must of ours comes from STFs and now FAs. We were deeply concerned at launch of S7 but now we are doing fine.
You describe it as an exploit, but forget that Crytic highlighted a Foundry mission that made fun of that "exploit" and added 50 fleet marks as a bonus reward to that "exploit" near the beginning of season six to encourage it's exploitation to fix the problem of a huge lack of fleet marks in the game.

These Foundry missions have tens of thousands of reviews. It's been a major part of the STO economy since season five. It has likely been the sole reason many small fleets got to Tier III.

The change won't hurt big or active fleets. It does kick casual/small fleets in the nuts.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,458
# 95
11-26-2012, 10:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maliusnight View Post
So what your saying is the vast majority of STO players are getting most of their income from a know exploit? Oh Dear. Maybe that was how most folks got dilithium in your fleet but must of ours comes from STFs and now FAs. We were deeply concerned at launch of S7 but now we are doing fine.
Also lowered. (STFs, I mean.)

And while he has good points, I think Cryptic's design philosophy was rooted in real world economics, not some kind of MMO game commentator economics perspective, as among other things I think they have more access to real MBAs than people from the gaming press. And I don't mean that in some kind of cynical "Cryptic is grabbing your cash" kind of way.

I think Cryptic's desire was to equalize player incomes and combat P2W and do so while hopefully increasing their profits.

I think they just haven't used the right strategy for that. But to build the appropriate counter, I'd need numbers, a calculator, a white board, and access to real people I could talk to. I hope Cryptic has this discussion productively on their own in their next patch post-mortem meeting.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,309
# 96
11-26-2012, 10:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by echodarksided View Post
Factually false. Cryptic counted on abuse when they added 50 fleet marks to the Foundry Daily in season six. It was by their design, and they knew it at the time.

I am among those who are happy they have removed the abuse of the Foundry Daily mission, because it cheapened the Foundry long term as a content engine for the game.

The problem was the poor planning involved in the transition away from the Foundry Daily as an economic function in the game. Good that they got rid of it, but horrible how they made no adjustments at all to compensate for it's loss within the STO economy.

That goes for Dilithium and fleet marks.
Yup. That 1440 Dil / 50 FM per character acted as oil on the hinges of the economy. Without it, progress for most mid-level fleets has stalled and people are probably less likely to top-up their reserves with the odd Zen purchase...
Commander
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 269
# 97
11-26-2012, 10:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by echodarksided View Post
Factually false. Cryptic counted on abuse when they added 50 fleet marks to the Foundry Daily in season six. It was by their design, and they knew it at the time.

I am among those who are happy they have removed the abuse of the Foundry Daily mission, because it cheapened the Foundry long term as a content engine for the game.

The problem was the poor planning involved in the transition away from the Foundry Daily as an economic function in the game. Good that they got rid of it, but horrible how they made no adjustments at all to compensate for it's loss within the STO economy.

That goes for Dilithium and fleet marks.
Falsity of that is very open to debate, we certainly never see a dev admit to any such thing.

The problem was they had a lot different theories, and they tried a couple different things. In point of fact they are still trying them. The 29th will see dil rewards for rep advancement, which should effect every character at level 50. We will see STF rewards going to 960+200+500 plus more loot bags, and FAs are still worth a good amount of dilithium and EC. Those who play will be rewarded.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,750
# 98
11-26-2012, 10:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maliusnight View Post
Or you could say, they closed a known exploited and shockingly require players to actually play the game. A terrible tragedy I know, whatever will those people with 12 alts do every day?
Well, if they.. you know... PAID for those 12 alts and now had a substantial game change imposed on them... most likely they would be justifiably upset. Also, I challenge calling it an exploit. Cryptic used it to prop up flagging interest in Starbases by adding FMs to it, knowing full well how it was used.
Career Officer
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 953
# 99
11-26-2012, 10:24 AM
I see talk of the Season 7 changes as being a re-distrubtion of wealth and that F2P somehow benefits from that. I am afraid that this is wrong.

There are several currencies in the game.

Dilithium (Time based, but can be bought with money)
Marks (Time based only)

=================================================

The key point is it isn't an attempt to play robin hood, it's a attempt to get people ot buy zen through frustration. The real currency that is being tinkered with here is time... let me illustrate...

Quote:
Originally Posted by thisisoverlord View Post
============================================

Let explain my own conclusion about how much the average player needs per to do per day to keep up with personal progression and fleet progression.

I set the goal at:
  • 60 Romulan Marks per day
  • 75 Omega Marks per day
  • 50 Fleet Marks
  • Setting up Doff Assignments
  • 1 Dilithium based PVE
  • 5 minutes to queue up your rep projects
  • 5 minutes to contribute to fleet projects

The result is at the moment for one character you need:

15 Minutes for the 60 Romulan Marks, using the Tau Dewu daily.
15 Minutes for the 75 Omega Marks, using ISE
45 Minutes for the 50 Fleet Marks, using Officer reports (until the daily minefield is fixed)
20 Minutes for setting up Doffs, (includes travel to various places)
20 Minutes for Dilithium PVE, SB24
10 Minutes for queuing projects

Total: About 2 hours (not including time wasted due to loading transitions etc)

In terms of Dilithium farming you will make from 2 hours work...

960 from ISE
1440 from Officer Reports
1000avg from doffing (more if you have the option to do rare assignement and then crit them, plus of course contraband)
1440 from SB24

total Dilithium: appx 4840. (this can be boosted by increasing weekly incomes like cashing in 5 contraband and 5 BNP's, those rewards would then be divided over 5 or 7 days... if you have a lot of Purple doffs you could crit a lot of missions and get maybe 2-3k dilith from assignments)

======================================

I have 3 characters so to keep up with the daily I would need to do 6 hours per day.

Therefore, most of this work is shunted to the weekends, apart from Officer reports which is on a timer.

Now, previously I could earn;

50 Fleet Marks in 0.5 Minutes
8000 Dilith in 1 Hour.
Doffing 20 minutes.

Total 1 Hour 20 minutes (at most).

======================================

What they are targeting is in fact your time. The only part of the above list that can be converted from time to money is Dilithium. The rest I have to do by playing missions, but Dilithium... I can pay for that with money instead of time.

Now think about what they did with Dilithium... the introduced new sinks aaaaand they spread Dilithium more thinly over more content (= more time required to harvest it).

======================================

It's not about redistribution of wealth... it's about exploiting the finite time people have and it's value.

Last edited by thisisoverlord; 11-26-2012 at 10:27 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 973
# 100
11-26-2012, 10:26 AM
Well the next step will be for Cryptic to put a crate of Dilithium Ore on the C-store. priced at 120,000 units @ 1500 Zen. Because it is unrefined and the 8000 unit refinement cap remains in effect, it will serve as a revenue generator and a grind relief. 120k ore works out to 4k units per day toward the refinement cap, thus cutting the amount of Dilithium needed to be ground for in half.

Also, gold members should automatically receive the 120,000 unit Dilithium Ore as a stipend per month in addition to their Zen stipend

The idea should be to add value to Zen and to the subscription option.

I am all for Cryptic deciding how many days it should take to complete objectives in the systems they have started adding since S6.

If they want something to take 3 days then they need to set a cost of 24,000 RD plus a 3d timer that starts the moment the project becomes available. So if it becomes available today, it will be three days before it can be completed. Both the time remaining and needed RD remaining must be zero for it to complete. Either can be zero with the other having a remaining balance at any given time, but both need to be zero before credit for the project is given.

Under that approach, even those who outright buy a total of 24k RD on the exchange will still be subject to the timer They cannot jump ahead of anyone. It would justmean paying for the convenience of not having to grind. The important thing is that nobody can outstrip anyone based on how much money they have to spend or how much time they have to spend playing.

Some may feel confined by this, but I believe that it is the only way to truly keep free players and those who pay on equal footing by granting conveniences to those who pay without devaluing the efforts of those who wish to earn their way through it. Balance means that both sides of an issue compromise so that an equilibrium is reached and they can meet in the middle. As I see it, this is that equilibrium.

The Dilithium exchange will always be the only way to get more than 8000 RD per day, so it will always remain a useful and needed mechanism, regardless of the RD:Z conversion ratio.
I'm not really a John Galt,
but I play one on the forums...
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