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Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,541
# 21
11-27-2012, 12:36 AM
Ya know.. I glance through all of this and I think to my self....

Such a shame that one console completely nuters this..


But who in their right mind uses Vent Theta Radiation.............It's not like it's such a vastly used console.. right?
You think that your beta test was bad?
Think about this:
American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 597
# 22
11-27-2012, 06:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by webdeath View Post
Ya know.. I glance through all of this and I think to my self....

Such a shame that one console completely nuters this..


But who in their right mind uses Vent Theta Radiation.............It's not like it's such a vastly used console.. right?
again.....space nurse when she does work. thats another reason i loved that doff when it would work. ide get thetat all day on my ship and bam!!!!! 2 sec later 75% crew. really hope cryptic fixes the space nurse so she will regen in comabt again.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 646
# 23
11-27-2012, 10:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by broken1981 View Post
again.....space nurse when she does work. thats another reason i loved that doff when it would work. ide get thetat all day on my ship and bam!!!!! 2 sec later 75% crew. really hope cryptic fixes the space nurse so she will regen in comabt again.

So I tested this (medic and nurse) and it may or may not work as you think.

Out of combat on my bug, I have a 50%/min crew recovery rate

In combat on my bug, I have a 5%/min crew recovery rate (because all crew is at battlestations)

When the very rare nurse or medic kicks in when my alive crew drops below 75%, that simply means that I get 15%/min crew recovery rate.

So, if you are in an escort that has a 50 man crew and you are down zero crew while still getting pounded by kinetic damage, your crew, while recovering more quickly, is still going to hover around zero because of the BFI cooldown that will prevent those who are recovering from being lost again.

IMO, it is better to equip a biofunction monitor, the jem shield, or emergency forcefield console rather than rely on this DOFF (if you even care at all)

Unfortunately, the crew death does not scale appropriately to the total crew compliment even though subsystem repair is based on the percentage of able crew. What I mean is.. I believe the kinetic damage and it's affect on able crew is global. So it appears that if a borg plasma torpedo takes out 50 crew on a cruiser, it will also take out 50 crew on a defiant, which means that the defiant will not have any able crew.

I think this latter point needs adjustment.
my new saying is "cryptic made me do it" in lieu of the the "devil"
Member since January 2010. I AM NOT A PWE FAN!!!!
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 14,001
# 24
11-27-2012, 01:20 PM
It's supposed to scale via the lesser mechanic. Using your 50 example, it should be 50 or 50% - whichever is the lesser of the two.

200 crew - you lose 50.
100 crew - you lose 50.
50 crew - you lose 25.

edit: It's a "feel" thing - but it definitely "feels" like it doesn't work this way. The Mirror Assault has 1000 crew and the Mirror Vor'cha has 1500 crew. I have the same EFF on each of them, but man - the Vor'cha bleeds crew like crazy. For the testing I did below, I had to work to get below 75% on the Assault - I was below 75% in a blink of the eye on the Vor'cha. I mentioned it earlier in the thread (when I was running different ships), and I'm still wondering if anybody's noticed something the same...

As for the DOFFs themselves, the description needs work.

Base recovery out of combat is 50%. That's what the white DOFF shows. However, if you're sporting a blue BFM - you're out of combat is 67.5%. The white DOFF will show 67.5%.

The green DOFF is double - 100%. It will show 135% if you've got a blue BFM.

Your in combat recover is 10% of your out of combat recovery. In my case, that 67.5% becomes 6.8%.

I tested it with two guys (a Fed with a green Nurse and a KDF with a white Medic). The DOFF description numbers do not change for combat. 67.5% and 135% stay the same.

In combat - the number on the character sheet shows as:

@100%:
Green - 6.8%
White - 6.8%

<75%:
Green - 13.5%
White - 10.1%

So yeah, that fits in with what you said about the Purple being 3x.

White 1.5x
Green 2.0x
Blue 2.5x
Purple 3.0x

The description for the Nurse/Medic really should just say that. Because when the white one says 67.5% - it's wrong, both in saying that it's 67.5% and even if one were to take 10% of that (in combat) at 6.8%...because it's not that. It's 1.5x whatever it would be (5% or 6.8% with the blue BFM). The green on the other hand, is just wrong in that it's not 135% - it's 13.5%. Its description is not as broken as the white one...meh.

It's like looking at the blue one. It's +150%. That +150% is an additional 150% of what you've got - not +150%. That's simple enough. That's the 2.5x, right? If you've got 50% OOC - 5% IC - then you should be looking at 12.5% IC when below 75%. The purple on is +200% - so 300% of 5%...15%.

+50%, +100%, +150%, +200%
1.5x, 2.0x, 2.5x, 3.0x

All good, right?

Slot a blue BFM (+35%).

+67.5%, +135%, +202.5%, +270%

Yeah... those numbers? Yeah... no.

10% them, and you'd think you'd have:

6.8%, 13.5%, 20%, 27%

It's not though - not in the least.

10.1%, 13.5%, 16.9%, 20% (w/o blue BFM - 7.5%, 10%, 12.5%, 15%).

^--- those are the numbers.

It's trippy the white shows no bonus, the green is fine, the blue shows the purple, and the purple shows a +300%/4.0x bonus when you have the blue BFM slotted. Mind boggling...meh.

Heh, what's also mind boggling is the recent run on KDF Medics... those things skyrocketed in price on the exchange after this thread was posted. As I post this:

Nurse
- White: 46k
- Green: 56k
- Blue: 200k
- Purple: 5.25m

Medic
- White: 65k
- Green: n/a now (but as I started to type this post, there was one for 300k)
- Blue: 1.2m
- Purple: 9.95m

Still though, the reason I started to look at the Nurse/Medic was to free up a console slot - replacing the BFM with a DOFF...given the change to the SDO/BFI DOFF and wanting to slot the new Romulan console.

It's basically a case of 6.8% vs. 7.5%/10%/12.5%/15% <75%. It definitely seemed worth it before the prices went to Hell.

Willard the Rat, Klingon Science Officer
Fleet Advanced Research Vessel Retrofit (FT5U) - D'Kyr Science Vessel (T5U)
Hazari Destroyer (FT6) - Phantom Intel Escort (T6)
Benthan Assault Cruiser (FT6) - Hirogen Apex Battle Cruiser (FT5U)

Last edited by virusdancer; 11-27-2012 at 01:31 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 646
# 25
11-27-2012, 03:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
It's supposed to scale via the lesser mechanic. Using your 50 example, it should be 50 or 50% - whichever is the lesser of the two.

200 crew - you lose 50.
100 crew - you lose 50.
50 crew - you lose 25.

edit: It's a "feel" thing - but it definitely "feels" like it doesn't work this way. The Mirror Assault has 1000 crew and the Mirror Vor'cha has 1500 crew. I have the same EFF on each of them, but man - the Vor'cha bleeds crew like crazy. For the testing I did below, I had to work to get below 75% on the Assault - I was below 75% in a blink of the eye on the Vor'cha. I mentioned it earlier in the thread (when I was running different ships), and I'm still wondering if anybody's noticed something the same...
so that's what I mean by it is not scaling correctly.

I know for a fact that my able crew has gone below 50% with an STF borg plasma weapon. I've seen my able crew go down to 30% or even less if I don't have BFI up... that's just not right with VM in the game these days and trying to repair my subsystems. ET, most of the time, is not viable on an escort unless it is a higher end escort or hybrid.
my new saying is "cryptic made me do it" in lieu of the the "devil"
Member since January 2010. I AM NOT A PWE FAN!!!!
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 363
# 26
11-27-2012, 04:40 PM
Curious, why hasn't Borticus or someone from the Dev team come talk to us on this thread?
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 597
# 27
11-27-2012, 06:01 PM
so are you saying the nurse/medic is working? are you saying its giving crew regen as inteneded? as i have said when they first came out a blue nurse would regen my crew from 0 to 75% in 2 secs. now i did buy a purple and im still not seeing regen. same as along time ago with my blue nurse. just stoped crew regen. was the 2 secs op? was it doing it too fast? what is the time frame for crew regen for a blue and a purple? 50 crew.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 14,001
# 28
11-28-2012, 01:09 AM
A question that comes to mind, is whether the loss proc and recovery rate are based on total crew or current crew.

I used to lean toward current, but I'm wondering if it is total.

It might explain certain things - ie, the 50 crew situation. If it's -50% (-25), then it would be wham bam - 0 crew. As opposed to 50-25=25-13=12-6=6-3=3-2=1-1=0.

Then again, that it works one way for Fed and one for KDF - might explain what I'm seeing. Who knows, eh?

Still, if it's based on total - using a Rapid Trans 8s recharge with a 50% to -20 or -20% against the two ships I'm currently dorking around with... (minus any consoles/resist):

MAC - RT proc (-20 crew/8s) & 7 crew recovery/8s
MVB - RT proc (-20 crew/8s) & 10 crew recovery/8s

That's in combat above 75% crew.

To hit 75% (given a 100% proc instead of 50%), it should take the following lengths of time:

MAC - 152-160 seconds
MVB - 296-304 seconds

That's if it is always based on total crew (both the proc (fudged to 100%) and the recovery).

Add in a Nurse/Medic (again, basing this on the total as opposed to current):

White
MAC - 10 crew/8s
MVB - 15 crew/8s

Green
MAC - 13 crew/8s
MVB - 20 crew/8s

Blue
MAC - 17 crew/8s
MVB - 25 crew/8s

Purple
MAC - 20 crew/8s
MVB - 30 crew/8s

So if it is based on total and not current, the MAC would require a Purple Nurse to hang around 75% while the MVB would require a Blue Medic to hang around 75%.

If you've got 50 crew in this case, where you're losing 10 crew/8s and the best you can get from a Nurse/Medic is 1 crew/8s... well, it doesn't make much sense to run a Nurse/Medic.

Yes, it's not a 100% proc rate - but then again, it's not a case that somebody's going to be just firing a single RT at you, eh?

It takes 1000 crew vs. 100% proc to have the Purple balance out against that -20 to keep you around 75% crew.

1500 requires a Blue, 2000 requires a Green, 3000 requires a White.

Again, that's if it works off of total. Crew Recovery makes sense to work off of total. The loss though, should work off of current - no? You can't lose more crew than you have. That being the case, it should take even longer to reach to that 75% and in turn the value of the Nurse/Medic should increase in a "real" combat situation.

Still though, in the end - I'm not sure any of it's actually working - and I'm pretty sure that it's even more broken going from Fed to KDF.

My Fed has a Green Nurse. My KDF has a White Medic. Both have a blue BFM and both have a blue EFF. The White Medic on the Mirror Vor'cha should give me a better crew recovery rate in combat versus the Green Nurse on the Mirror Assault.

But...

I farm Archer in Tau Dewa. I run it five times for the daily. I farm it for gear to sell while waiting on CDs for fleet/STF.

The MAC runs great. The MVB bleeds crew like crazy.

It's not just a case of one run and saying something's up. I'm running Archer a Hell of a lot - enough for that clear pattern to appear. It was the same when I was doing it in an Advanced Escort and a Negh'Var. Which is mind boggling, because the White Medic should have worked awesome with the 2500 crew of the Negh'Var versus the Green Nurse with only 150 crew on the Advanced Escort.

That was not the case. The Negh'Var bled crew even faster than the Mirror Vor'cha does. The Advanced Escort stayed above 75% better than the Mirror Assault does.

None of this makes any sense to me. Maybe I'm being an idiot, maybe I'm massively overlooking something or doing something massively wrong in the calculations. Maybe one of the previous devs hated the KDF and secretly coded something to increase the proc rate against KDF vessels...lol - I don't know. Only know what I've experienced...

...and I'm not sure any of it's working.

Crew Loss Proc Rate? Don't think it's working.
Base Crew Recovery? Don't think it's working.
Nurse/Medic? Don't think it's working.
Fed & KDF the same? Don't think it's working.

Willard the Rat, Klingon Science Officer
Fleet Advanced Research Vessel Retrofit (FT5U) - D'Kyr Science Vessel (T5U)
Hazari Destroyer (FT6) - Phantom Intel Escort (T6)
Benthan Assault Cruiser (FT6) - Hirogen Apex Battle Cruiser (FT5U)
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,541
# 29
11-28-2012, 01:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
It's not just a case of one run and saying something's up. I'm running Archer a Hell of a lot - enough for that clear pattern to appear. It was the same when I was doing it in an Advanced Escort and a Negh'Var. Which is mind boggling, because the White Medic should have worked awesome with the 2500 crew of the Negh'Var versus the Green Nurse with only 150 crew on the Advanced Escort.

That was not the case. The Negh'Var bled crew even faster than the Mirror Vor'cha does. The Advanced Escort stayed above 75% better than the Mirror Assault does.

None of this makes any sense to me. Maybe I'm being an idiot, maybe I'm massively overlooking something or doing something massively wrong in the calculations. Maybe one of the previous devs hated the KDF and secretly coded something to increase the proc rate against KDF vessels...lol - I don't know. Only know what I've experienced..
Imagine if you were in a Carrier of all things.. The Vor'quv, Recluse, and Atrox I think all have like 5k Crew?
You think that your beta test was bad?
Think about this:
American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 14,001
# 30
11-28-2012, 02:44 AM
Further, there's this:

Hull Repair Rate - my active Fed & my active KDF

Both have 104 Hull Repair skill. Neither has Techie. Neither has any passives boosting it.

On stripped ships (only a Mk I Impulse Engine equipped).

Fed
Light Cruiser: 10947 Hull, 200 Crew, 119.4% Hull Repair
Light Science: 10947 Hull, 80 Crew, 119.4% Hull Repair
Escort: 16421 Hull, 50 Crew, 99.5% Hull Repair
Heavy Escort: 23948 Hull, 100 Crew, 99.5% Hull Repair
Tactical Escort: 31218 Hull, 50 Crew, 99.5% Hull Repair
Advanced Escort: 40301 Hull, 150 Crew, 99.5% Hull Repair
Mirror Assault: 50701 Hull, 1000 Crew, 143.3% Hull Repair

KDF
Norgh: 19158 Hull, 75 Crew, 119.4% Hull Repair
K't'inga: 28737 Hull, 800 Crew, 131.3% Hull Repair
Vor'cha: 37461 Hull, 1500 Crew, 131.3% Hull Repair
Negh'Var: 50701 Hull, 2500 Crew, 131.3% Hull Repair
Mirror Vor'cha: 46801 Hull, 1500 Crew, 131.3% Hull Repair

Neither Hull nor total Crew affect the Hull Repair rate that. It's based off of a percentage of crew remaining. 100% crew = 100% hull repair rate, etc, etc, etc.

Different ship classes have a different modifier to that hull repair rate. This isn't something that I've seen on STOwiki - nor is it anything I've really seen discussed on the forums (though it's likely, people discuss all sorts of things).

So two things come to mind with this...

First - is there some ship modifier (hidden) for the subsystem repair as well?

Second - is about the value of crew recovery in relationship to ship type and the effectiveness of a Nurse/Medic. Given the previous crew loss proc information depending on crew size and given the ship modifiers to hull repair - if you're in an Escort with 99.5% hull repair (100% crew) and sporting that small starting crew size... meh, what's the point, eh? Compare that to a Cruiser with the 143.3% and a larger starting crew. Then compare that to a Battle Cruiser, where it might have a larger crew - but it's got a smaller modifier from that crew.

Depending on how that loss proc and crew recovery actually work (and depending on if there's a hidden subsystem repair modifier) - well, there's certain ships where it doesn't make sense to use a Nurse/Medic...right?

I'm trying to think what could explain the following I mentioned earlier:

The Advanced Escort had the best chance of keeping the most crew and needing the least amount of hull heals - even better than the Mirror Assault.
The Mirror Vor'cha with the same modifier but fewer crew - bleeds crew less than the Negh'var.

Defense, eh? More misses on the Advanced Escort than the MAC? More misses on the MVB than the Negh?

Heh, maybe if I were a skilled pilot and the testing wasn't done in PvE where I pretty much sit there facing the target while watching TV...lol. Still, it might explain it... trying to be honest here, and that's a viable possibility to explain those.

Still, is there a hidden subsystem repair modifier based on ship type like there's a hull repair modifier? How exactly does the loss proc and crew recovery work? With things like that answered, it should be easy enough for anybody to look at the ship they're flying to see whether they should bother with a Nurse/Medic...and whether they should shell out for the better quality or spend that money elsewhere first - picking up the better DOFF as money allows.

Willard the Rat, Klingon Science Officer
Fleet Advanced Research Vessel Retrofit (FT5U) - D'Kyr Science Vessel (T5U)
Hazari Destroyer (FT6) - Phantom Intel Escort (T6)
Benthan Assault Cruiser (FT6) - Hirogen Apex Battle Cruiser (FT5U)
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