Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,173
# 81
11-28-2012, 02:58 PM
I must say that with the exception of an Excelsior and some toying with a Recluse, my Fed toons, regardless of class, end up going with Escorts.

As long as this game stays DPS-centric, I have no choice.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 82
11-28-2012, 08:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by badname834854 View Post
I must say that with the exception of an Excelsior and some toying with a Recluse, my Fed toons, regardless of class, end up going with Escorts.

As long as this game stays DPS-centric, I have no choice.
Yup. That's the name of the game. So much so, that it's at the point where I am going to go for a fleet defiant (and NO, I do NOT want a bloody battle-cloak) and probably stay in it. Or just live in my FPE. OR be an ass and despite getting yelled at continue to fly my Odyssey. Actually I think I'll go with that last one.

On another random note, I still wish the Oddy could use the 3 unique consoles without using up any of it's regular 10 consoles XD. Or at least make the set bonus not total garbage. Cuz that's the only reason I don't run all 3. The bonus is terrible. Buff that, and I will be a little happier (not just the oddy, but bort too).

That little "Heretic wanting his flagship to be a flagship" aside, on the topic of cruisers, they really really REALLY need a turn rate boost and inertia improvement. They may be working as intended, but if working as intended means doing very little to nothing unless flown by a competent pilot (which most of us know that they are far and few between) then this game really needs to be looked at.

Let's take a look at what this game offers you compared to cruisers.

We have fast, maneuverable ships that have a ton of forward firepower, but if you get out of that front arc have their damage cut by almost 80%. However that's where the fast and maneuverable comes in. Have you ever tried to get out of a Defiant's firing arc as a cruiser? It's a little hard to do. Hell even other escorts have difficulty doing it. BoPs are fine =P.

What do these fast little hard hitters sacrifice? 20% hull, 30% shields (on paper, in actuality both of those values are closer to only 10-15%), fewer engineering BOffs and consoles (the consoles are a moot point with how resistance works in this game, and you can get all the survivability you need from a Lt and ensign engi, or just the Lt). You also have a smaller crew (also a semi-moot point since this game does things off of percentage of crew alive instead of actual numbers) and a slightly lower hull regen rate.

We also have lower hulled heavily shielded craft that can cause mayhem and madness with crowd control and pretty colors. They also have the best heals over time, and access to some of the most entertaining abilities (oh come on, you know you love a good grav well and tykens rift). They also have one of the funniest final captain abilities (photonic fleet is lulzy, esp how much aggro it actually holds).

What do they sacrifice? 30-35% hull (on paper, in actuality it turns out to more like 25-28%), and engineering consoles and BOff abilities (also a null point again due to what was mentioned with escorts) and a smaller crew (moot point again) with a slightly lower hull regen.

Lastly, you have giant fat mofos with a frakkin TON of hp and shields, which can't turn to save their lives (ever. period) but make up for it by again being giant walls of meat and shields, and they have hangars. Which spit out fighters. And other fun things. And in the case of the Vo'Quv, BoPs that can be very nasty.

What do they give up? Compared to cruisers, almost nothing. Just 2 weapons, a tiny turn rate reduction, and that's about it.

Then we look at cruisers. They have the highest hull (second only to carriers), pretty good shields, and the most weapons out of all the ships. They also have the most engineering consoles and BOff slots, and they also have the most balanced power bonuses out of the 4 classes (no, I will NOT count fighters and smaller craft).

What do they sacrifice? Turn rate. Your average cruiser will only have 40% the turn rate of an escort, and only 60% the turn rate of most science ships. They also have an inertia that is usually 4x that of an escort, and 2.5-3x that of most science ships. They also cannot use dual (heavy) cannons. BUT THAT'S IT.

So based off of what I just went over (if I missed anything, feel free to add on), Cruisers actually only got slightly shafted (or did they?). Other than a disgusting turn rate and inertia, cruisers are great ships. They have all around boosted power, and they have the highest hulls (which everyone knows is useful against borg torps). They also have the best survivability in all those engi BOff slots, and if you're an engi captain, you can use them most effectively (since they have Cmdr level BOffs, they can use Aux2SIF3, RSP3, EPtX3 (if it's an engi), and other such goodies). HOWEVER... that low turn rate and high inertia means controlling your ship is a chore on a good day. And when you need to get your ship around (either for another pass or to change shield facings between your tac teams) it takes all of this week and most of the next. Which actually cuts down on survivability. You also have the lowest dodge rate, BY A TON!!! (yes, 10% is a lot).

Does it balance out? I don't think so personally. The disparity of maneuverability between even sci ships and cruisers is too much, to say nothing of cruisers and escorts. Yes, you gain a ton more hull, but in all honesty, as I stated on more than one occasion, with how skills are and with how burst is, believe it or not, 8k is actually not much at all, heck even 12k isn't that much. Also the more engi consoles? So what? At most you'll have maybe 10% more resistance than equivalent science ships and escorts. Which is a null point since those other two classes are more likely to dodge (there's where that 10% actually means something). In the end, cruisers just have no point anymore. Their healing ability is easily outdone by a science ship, and their tanking ability is only somewhat better than an escort. All they are really good at doing is taking hits. Which is where carriers outdo them. And carriers are actually more useful, since courtesy of their fighters, they can dps pretty hard.

Take what you will from this post lol...
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Tired of Wasting EC and Time trying to get Superior Romulan Operative BOffs? Here's a cheap and easy way to get them, with an almost 100% chance of success.
Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,100
# 83
11-28-2012, 11:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
That little "Heretic wanting his flagship to be a flagship" aside, on the topic of cruisers, they really really REALLY need a turn rate boost and inertia improvement.
I think the issue is not there. but somewhere else.

Quote:
Let's take a look at what this game offers you compared to cruisers.

We have fast, maneuverable ships that have a ton of forward firepower, but if you get out of that front arc have their damage cut by almost 80%. However that's where the fast and maneuverable comes in. Have you ever tried to get out of a Defiant's firing arc as a cruiser? It's a little hard to do.
That should not be a problem, actually - there are beam arrays whose broadside should be able to get an escort.

Except it isn't. And that is, in my opinion, the issue. So, why is it?

Two things:
  • There is no equivalent of Cannon Rapid Fire for beams. There is only an equivalent for Cannon Scatter Volley (which is Fire At Will) and some strange "works better with a single dual beam bank as with a broadside" power that is called "Beam Overload".
  • Beams have this strange energy drain that magically does not affect other types of energy weapons as much, even when their energy output (as seen from their damage) is higher than that of beams.

In short: Cruisers are not underpowered. Beams (more precisely, single beam array broad side builds) are.

You can easily test this by equipping an escort as a broadside ship, with six or seven beam arrays. It will suddenly not be as deadly, and need a lot longer to kill anything.
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Last edited by sophlogimo; 11-28-2012 at 11:30 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 84
11-28-2012, 11:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sophlogimo View Post
In short: Cruisers are not underpowered. Beams (more precisely, single beam array broad side builds) are.
Why must you insist upon shooting yourself in the foot so often? It makes me cringe every time I read posts like the one you just did.

You just negated your own argument with that post. Beam Array broadside builds are underpowered. That is far from true, but going with that, I will ask you, what are most federation cruisers limited to using as a result of weapon restrictions and their low turn rate and horrible inertia? Yeah, that's right, Beam Array broadside builds.

Sooo... yeah... -.-

P.S I added on distinction "federation cruisers" simply because the KDF Vor'cha Retrofit and Fleet Tor'Kaht Retrofit basically break the mold as KDF battlecruisers go.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Tired of Wasting EC and Time trying to get Superior Romulan Operative BOffs? Here's a cheap and easy way to get them, with an almost 100% chance of success.
Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,395
# 85
11-28-2012, 11:44 PM
It's a little frustrating that I've went through the trouble of explaining in detail how resistance consoles work only for people to still promulgate the misinformation about "diminishing returns" or whatever, to the point where I'm seeing people in ESD talking about it no less.

Engineering consoles do not have diminishing returns. The way they work is counterintuitive, but each console adds just as much as the last one.

vids and guides and stuff

[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,462
# 86
11-29-2012, 12:21 AM
The D'kora is also a load of fun.

When you give a cruiser a turn rate of around 10 degrees a second, and give it an LTC tactical slot to play with, it stops being a passive slab of hull plating.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 87
11-29-2012, 12:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmerless View Post
It's a little frustrating that I've went through the trouble of explaining in detail how resistance consoles work only for people to still promulgate the misinformation about "diminishing returns" or whatever, to the point where I'm seeing people in ESD talking about it no less.

Engineering consoles do not have diminishing returns. The way they work is counterintuitive, but each console adds just as much as the last one.
I accept this. It just annoys me a little since it seems that other consoles are more effective for much cheaper.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Tired of Wasting EC and Time trying to get Superior Romulan Operative BOffs? Here's a cheap and easy way to get them, with an almost 100% chance of success.
Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,100
# 88
11-29-2012, 01:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
[...]
You just negated your own argument with that post.
I conclude that you have misunderstood my argument.

Quote:
Beam Array broadside builds are underpowered. That is far from true,
It is not? Well, then do me a favor and build a broadside beam escort that performs even remotely as blast-through-everything-y as a dual heavy cannon escort. That ship will then have more tac consoles and more tac abilities than any cruiser, and still be comparatively underwhelming, taking way too much time to destroy any given target.

And then compare a Klingon Battlecruiser that uses Dual Heavy Cannons. Guess what, these do have significant punch.

Quote:
but going with that, I will ask you, what are most federation cruisers limited to using as a result of weapon restrictions and their low turn rate and horrible inertia? Yeah, that's right, Beam Array broadside builds.
The problem you (correctly) observe, if I understand you correctly, is that fed cruisers are unable to do significant punch unless packed with highest-quality-gear (and only then it will be on par with mediocre quality gear escorts). But adding some maneuverability won't solve that issue, their weapons will still be underwhelming. Fix the weapons, and it will have a ton of beneficial effects:
  • Cruisers are a threat again, second in direct offensive power only to escorts - as it should be.
  • More viable options to build escorts and science ships.
  • All those NPC broadside escorts we can see in game (USS Belfast, for example) suddenly make sense.

My recommendation would thus be: Either decrease the energy drain from beams or increase the energy drain from cannons (the latter would have the advantage of not gimping engineer captains even more). And give us some rapid fire ability for beams.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Promote what you love, instead of bashing what you hate.

Last edited by sophlogimo; 11-29-2012 at 01:08 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,395
# 89
11-29-2012, 01:23 AM
Moving the subject away from claims that cruisers are underpowered (which are hard to take seriously given so few seem to understand how to build their ship) and onto the issue with beam arrays is more productive, I think.

As I see it, the problem is two-fold:

a) Cryptic cannot seem to balance the Fed cruiser's main damage ability, FAW. It was once (intentionally? Unintentionally?) too strong so it's been nerfed to the point where it's too weak.

b) This is more a personal opinion coming from someone who likes fast or agile ships, but the Fed snoozer is penalized too hard through beam damage dropoff due to distance from their target(s). Ships that struggle to turn shouldn't be punished so hard, it's a kind of double-dipping.

vids and guides and stuff

[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 765
# 90
11-29-2012, 02:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmerless View Post
Moving the subject away from claims that cruisers are underpowered (which are hard to take seriously given so few seem to understand how to build their ship) and onto the issue with beam arrays is more productive, I think.

As I see it, the problem is two-fold:

a) Cryptic cannot seem to balance the Fed cruiser's main damage ability, FAW. It was once (intentionally? Unintentionally?) too strong so it's been nerfed to the point where it's too weak.

b) This is more a personal opinion coming from someone who likes fast or agile ships, but the Fed snoozer is penalized too hard through beam damage dropoff due to distance from their target(s). Ships that struggle to turn shouldn't be punished so hard, it's a kind of double-dipping.
FAW was indeed better once upon a time, but it has always been more akin to cannon scatter volley skill than the rapid cannon fire skill. I'm not sure what the best approach would be here.

Point B is where I believe we should focus more attention for beam arrays. The options to improve this could possibly be:

a) Eliminate range damage drop off entirely so the damage is always consistent.

b) Reduce the range damage drop off and also increase the damage as the target gets closer. This would give beams more punch.

c) Give beams more range so they have a longer engagement range.

d) Add an additional volley to the firing cycle to increase damage output.

Posters have also suggested heavy beam arrays for cruisers that would work more like heavy cannons giving more spike damage potential.
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