Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,253
# 111
11-29-2012, 01:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by canis36 View Post
If this is really the case why didn't cryptic set equip limits for dual cannons/dual heavy cannons?
They lack the tech. The only items they can put equip limits on are unique items.

Although they could simply tac on something like how the old torpedo system worked but it is far too late for such a game sweeping modification.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,750
# 112
11-29-2012, 01:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by badname834854 View Post
...........As long as this game stays DPS-centric, I have no choice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
Yup. That's the name of the game. So much so, that it's at the point where I am going to go for a fleet defiant (and NO, I do NOT want a bloody battle-cloak) and probably stay in it. Or just live in my FPE. OR be an ass and despite getting yelled at continue to fly my Odyssey. Actually I think I'll go with that last one.
I have to admit I do not understand why you feel forced to play any type of ship. The beauty of the STO space combat system is that you don't NEED to be anything in particular to get through content, either Elite or Normal. What I do is have several alts, something I'm sure mot players already have. While I usually play my Tac Escort the most sometimes I prefer to fly my Engi Cruiser and tank like nobody's business. Others I try to get my new Sci captain in a Recon to work like I want it to... using grav wells of DOOM and kinetic only weapons (ok, ok, maybe my sci ship isn't as good yet, i'm trying to make a working sci powers/torp/mine build and its not going so well lol).

My suggestion to you all is to have different alts that do different things. With the way the game works if you REALLY want to grind you are better off using several alts anyway, so why not make them all play and feel very different? I guarantee the variety will make things less grindy.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,766
# 113
11-29-2012, 01:49 PM
[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by canis36 View Post
The idea that escorts are just as effective/better tanks as cruisers comes not from the fact that escorts are tanks in the same sense that cruisers are, but that they can more effectively tank in PvE combat thanks to a number of skills that enhance escort survivability in combination with a number of high level, no drawback damage boosting skills that punt the escort's damage up to the point that cookie cutter cannon-build escorts can in many cases park their asses right in the face of a target and soak more than enough damage to utterly destroy said target before dying...
Only one Tactical ability is mostly only availible to Escorts that help them tank "better" than a Cruiser.

Attack Pattern Omega. Escorts can cycle two of them to maintain maximum bonus damage resistance.
Only a few Cruiser have a LTC tac SLot to use ApO1, and they can not cycle them unless they use twin or single ATB1 to keep it rolling.

Only one special defense bonus is given to escorts to help them tank. They recieve 10% more Bonuse defense when moving at an attack speed. Cruiser are 10% less.
THis is meant to reflect that an escort, like a fighter, has a betetr chance to juke and evade than a massive Cruiser in combat.

If a cruiser dies quick in PvE then they are doing something wrong because that is all that really sperates them from escort in PvP and the NPC's in this game do not hit near as effectively as a human to be a threat in 90% of the game. The other 10% is not that much stronger since it relies on 1-shots to kill the player more than anything else.
Richard Hamilton (1975-2014)
goodbye good friend. We will see you in the DMZ in the sky oneday, save a shot for us.

Last edited by bitemepwe; 11-29-2012 at 02:02 PM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,766
# 114
11-29-2012, 01:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
Before any discusion on balance can begin though there must be consensus that the cruiser hull itself is underpowered.
Hull period is under powered in STO. Its not just a Cruiser thing.

But on further rereading I found the idea made sense, a passive Hull resist buff dependent on Aux power levels similiar to what Shields does for shield resists.

such would be a huge boon to Cruiser since they more than escort can run Multiple copies of EPTA and EPTS on thier builds to keep both power levels as maxed as possible.

Though it will not take some player too long to figure how to do almost the same on other ships through non-direct methods.
Richard Hamilton (1975-2014)
goodbye good friend. We will see you in the DMZ in the sky oneday, save a shot for us.

Last edited by bitemepwe; 11-29-2012 at 02:08 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 643
# 115
11-29-2012, 02:36 PM
[quote=bitemepwe;6849181]
Quote:

Only one Tactical ability is mostly only availible to Escorts that help them tank "better" than a Cruiser.

Attack Pattern Omega. Escorts can cycle two of them to maintain maximum bonus damage resistance.
Only a few Cruiser have a LTC tac SLot to use ApO1, and they can not cycle them unless they use twin or single ATB1 to keep it rolling.

Only one special defense bonus is given to escorts to help them tank. They recieve 10% more Bonuse defense when moving at an attack speed. Cruiser are 10% less.
THis is meant to reflect that an escort, like a fighter, has a betetr chance to juke and evade than a massive Cruiser in combat.

If a cruiser dies quick in PvE then they are doing something wrong because that is all that really sperates them from escort in PvP and the NPC's in this game do not hit near as effectively as a human to be a threat in 90% of the game. The other 10% is not that much stronger since it relies on 1-shots to kill the player more than anything else.
I was actually thinking of Attack Pattern Delta as a devensive bonus though mostly the fact that practically every escort is going to be running two copies of Tactical Team 1 which is a much more effective "defense" bonus than running around because your shields soak so much of your damage and you've efffectively increased your shield HP by a factor of four everytime you use it.

I suppose I should use an example for what I mean by effective tanking - in Khitomer Space Normal when you blow two generators a pair of Spheres show up. Before the latest buff to the Borg I could do this with an escort and blow away both spheres while taking moderate damage. In the same amount of time I could take on one with a cruiser and sustain only moderate damage. While hull HP would be lower on the escort at no point would I have had to disengage and heal.

With the cube that shows up in the Elite version my Escort will take more damage true, but it's ability to soak damage is still sufficient to allow it to sit and hammer away at the Cube until it's dead.

That is what I mean when I say that an escort can tank just as/more effectively than a cruiser. Not that it can soak total damage batter than a cruiser, but that it's effective ability to soak damage is equal to or greater than a cruiser's.

Last edited by canis36; 11-29-2012 at 02:39 PM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 108
# 116
11-29-2012, 02:55 PM
I actually think hull base resists should be lowered and a bonus could be granted by size of crew. This would make scorts have to disengage to heal, which is what they were designed do to, while giving cruisers added staying power, which they were suppose to able to do. Also to make crew more meaningful, make crew affect TT shiled transfer. But at the same time make it where more crew equals more resist to loosing crew as well as crew recovery. Makes sense, more people on a ship means more people to help those who have been injured.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,253
# 117
11-29-2012, 05:04 PM
[quote=bitemepwe;6849181]
Quote:

Only one Tactical ability is mostly only availible to Escorts that help them tank "better" than a Cruiser.

Attack Pattern Omega. Escorts can cycle two of them to maintain maximum bonus damage resistance.
Only a few Cruiser have a LTC tac SLot to use ApO1, and they can not cycle them unless they use twin or single ATB1 to keep it rolling.

Only one special defense bonus is given to escorts to help them tank. They recieve 10% more Bonuse defense when moving at an attack speed. Cruiser are 10% less.
THis is meant to reflect that an escort, like a fighter, has a betetr chance to juke and evade than a massive Cruiser in combat.

If a cruiser dies quick in PvE then they are doing something wrong because that is all that really sperates them from escort in PvP and the NPC's in this game do not hit near as effectively as a human to be a threat in 90% of the game. The other 10% is not that much stronger since it relies on 1-shots to kill the player more than anything else.
10% more defense translates into taking less damage, not quite 10% less but still less and it takes a lower amount of engine subsystem power to hit this mystical impulse speed.

And once again you are mixing boff abilities vs ship type. But on that note the damage increase you gain from attack patterns or weapon abilities are effected by how powerful your weapons are to begin with. At the same time a heal ability will grant the same exact value to any ship regardless of its shield modifier or maximum hull health.

Finally if anyone dies quick in PvE then they are doing something wrong.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,750
# 118
11-29-2012, 06:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
Before any discusion on balance can begin though there must be consensus that the cruiser hull itself is underpowered.

Bareel, Bareel, Bareel. First off, why isn't your name Barrel? I kept wanting to type that. And before any of your discussion can take place YOU must agree that a hull type (ie. cruiser) will and should always be underpowered when its not used according to its design intent. Clearly a sportscar is overpowered compared to a pickup truck in a race... but the question is why are you racing against a sportscar with a pickup truck

Just a few minutes ago I took my Engi cruiser for a spin. I parked its phat cruiser a$$ next to a gate and tanked it and some spheres, then I sat on a Tac cube tanking it. I know from personal experience that my better equipped escort can't hope to do that. Not even close. If you don't want to tank or heal, don't fly a cruiser without understanding that you will not be as good as everything else at THEIR specialization. Why insist on suffering with a type of ship you clearly don't want to fly? Why do that to yourself? If you think escorts are really so much better then fly one and have fun.

Last edited by skyranger1414; 11-29-2012 at 06:20 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,410
# 119
11-30-2012, 12:48 AM
There's a misconception that an escort's "tankiness" comes from the flat defense bonus in PvP (in PvE I've no idea why people claim escorts are "tankier"). In truth their best form of tanking comes from using superior mobility to not take damage in the first place: stay out of range of narrow, high-damage arcs, avoid CC (Grav Wells, Warp Plasma), etc.

A properly-built Engie snoozer will outtank a Taxscort by an order of magnitude. Your run-of-the-mill escort simply doesn't have the BOff slots or the skill spec to complement real high-end tanking or healing.

vids and guides and stuff

[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,253
# 120
11-30-2012, 06:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyranger1414 View Post
Bareel, Bareel, Bareel. First off, why isn't your name Barrel? I kept wanting to type that. And before any of your discussion can take place YOU must agree that a hull type (ie. cruiser) will and should always be underpowered when its not used according to its design intent. Clearly a sportscar is overpowered compared to a pickup truck in a race... but the question is why are you racing against a sportscar with a pickup truck

Just a few minutes ago I took my Engi cruiser for a spin. I parked its phat cruiser a$$ next to a gate and tanked it and some spheres, then I sat on a Tac cube tanking it. I know from personal experience that my better equipped escort can't hope to do that. Not even close. If you don't want to tank or heal, don't fly a cruiser without understanding that you will not be as good as everything else at THEIR specialization. Why insist on suffering with a type of ship you clearly don't want to fly? Why do that to yourself? If you think escorts are really so much better then fly one and have fun.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
Before any discusion on balance can begin though there must be consensus that the cruiser hull itself is underpowered. That alone was the purpose of this thread. Not abilities, not weapons, just base hull design.

However now that we have reached, I hope, that consensus their is a wide variety of options available depending on the direction one wants to push the game. There is the equal but different style and then there is the ship role style mostly exemplified in PvP. I am a fan of the equal but different style myself so that is the direction my suggestions will go.
And I do fly escorts and battlecruisers because from a PvE standpoint they are optimal. However I have exhausted my build options in them and would like to use other hulls for variety sake but their current underpowered state annoys me. As does the concept of the holy trinity being used in a star trek MMO while in space.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmerless View Post
There's a misconception that an escort's "tankiness" comes from the flat defense bonus in PvP (in PvE I've no idea why people claim escorts are "tankier"). In truth their best form of tanking comes from using superior mobility to not take damage in the first place: stay out of range of narrow, high-damage arcs, avoid CC (Grav Wells, Warp Plasma), etc.

A properly-built Engie snoozer will outtank a Taxscort by an order of magnitude. Your run-of-the-mill escort simply doesn't have the BOff slots or the skill spec to complement real high-end tanking or healing.
Incorrect, with a dedicated healer the escort is a stronger tank because they can both hit resistance caps, get the same numeric amount of healing, but the escort avoids more raw damage and can better position themselves.
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