Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 245
# 31
11-30-2012, 03:35 PM
Thing is its hard to ban people for using something that shouldn't be on the live server in the first place. I really blame the people that release bugs like voldemort and items like the jem shields to live without proper testing.

Think of it like this p2wsucks, if you where a newbie logged into the game after downloading it from steam and you where using game braking buggs in sto and got banned, how cool would that be?
Noone.

Last edited by zorandra; 11-30-2012 at 03:37 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,547
# 32
11-30-2012, 03:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
This whole argument, and several prior, seem to stem from a difference of opinion on the definition of the term "exploit." And, it appears that I have a different definition than most. Perhaps we can put this whole semantic debate behind us, if I offer some clarification.

In my opinion, as a Dev, somebody that is Exploiting is deserving of punishment. By extension, an action should be called an Exploit only if it is an action that the player should be held accountable for, and face punitive measures for.

If a player is utilizing a coding error, potentially without their knowledge, they should not be held accountable for it, in my opinion. And therefore, by my personal definition, that action is not Exploiting. To call it Exploiting would imply that disciplinary actions would be warranted.

My opinion on this may be quite bias, however.

For example, it was my responsibility that the Jem'Hadar Shield was benefiting from Brace-for-Impact Doffs in error at the time they rolled out to the public. It would have been improper - unfair, illogical - to punish players for utilizing that combination of items/powers, when it was MY responsibility that they were malfunctioning. Therefore, doing so was not what I would define as an Exploit.
First... thank you for the fix.

To be honest your view of exploit is a little off. Code errors happen, that doesn't mean people are in the right for continuing to use something, that is broken. Players do not have Dev ESP... we can't decide if a broken piece of code was something you woopsied on or something you had no idea would function that way. We don't get a pass because we don't know what you where thinking when the code was "broken".

YES it is your right... and frankly your responsibility. As a dev to enforce your TOS... if Cryptic as a whole doesn't have the stomach for that... frankly you guys need to man up.

I know you have played other games that are out there... how many of them do you think would go so far in NOT enforcing there TOS as to say have fun with this till we fix it (I understand the comment was light hearted)... even if it is destroying game play. (I am not just talking about PVP here... man I can't tell you how many stfs I was in the last week or so that ended really really quickly cause some goof was running disperal 3 omega 3 Rapid 3... ect. I remember doing one infected where the gate blew up like 20sec after the second transformer went down. lol)

Honesty this "Bug" Could be activated innocently enough... which is WHY Cryptic as a Developer needs to learn how to send people warnings. As well as tow the company line... Which I believe is likely FOLLOW THE TOS. I have never played any game where I know of people being baned for being reported for using an exploit... they all get banned after getting WARNED about using an exploit. Your warnings could have explained how to remove skills from there tool bar... no one was forcing those people to push the extra buttons... but no one was saying they ought not to either.

Anyway again thanks for the fix... I just hope in the future you guys will be a little more by the book when this stuff happens.
When the messenger comes to appropriate your profits ... kill the messenger.

Last edited by antoniosalieri; 11-30-2012 at 03:42 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,456
# 33
11-30-2012, 03:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zorandra View Post
Thing is its hard to ban people for using something that shouldn't be on the live server in the first place. I really blame the people that release bugs like voldemort and items like the jem shields to live without proper testing.

Think of it like this p2wsucks, if you where a newbie logged into the game after downloading it from steam and you where using game braking buggs in sto and got banned, how cool would that be?
If it was avoidable and I was warned I'd expect it. In fact I can't think of an exploited bug I've heard of that wasn't avoidable in this game.

Shield regen bug/exploit
TBR bug/exploit
Plas Leech bug/exploit
Jem Shield bug/exploit

etc

This is about people knowingly cheat and there being no pushiment to discourage the cheating. Seriously, the example he gave actually DC'd people and prevented them playing the game ...
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 569
# 34
11-30-2012, 04:20 PM
I do get it now.. I drove to taco bell and on the way, I thought about it more.

All exploits are errors either in the conceptualization of the code or the code itself.

What you are trying to say is that you will act when you can prove "intent', and when you are unable to prove intent, you do not act and fix the code.

What I say to that is allow us to report the exploiters. Then when you can prove that they did exploit, you send them a warning. The 2nd time they have to be warned about the same thing, then you can ban them. You can ban them at that point because you have established a paper trail of wrong doing.

In this case, you were able to get the fix out the door rather quickly, but harm was still done to all parties. You should still never encourage the use of a coding error and give it free reign like you did. You should establish a clear procedure of what will happen if one gets caught until a fix is deployed and state that they should not use the "coding error".

I know that I pay you guys well for a good experience on this game, and I have not enjoyed myself for the past week with this voldemort bug.
Member since January 2010. I AM NOT A PWE FAN!!!!

Last edited by tfomega; 11-30-2012 at 04:24 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 998
# 35
11-30-2012, 04:24 PM
Personally speaking, I'm going to miss Grav Well 3 on my Fleet Defiant
Hi, my name is: Elim Garak, Former Cardassian Oppressor

LTS, here since...when did this game launch again?
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 569
# 36
11-30-2012, 04:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by trhrangerxml View Post
Personally speaking, I'm going to miss Grav Well 3 on my Fleet Defiant
which brings up another point.. if a power is in use on a ship that wouldn't normally have access to that power, you know the player made a conscious choice to use the power at that point by dragging it to their power tray, thereby establishing intent.

DEM3 on a defiant.. grav well, etc.. yes.. the player does in fact know better as you just eluded to.

A simple scan of the database would prove that intent if a power that a ship should never have active is actually used.. that stuff is even in the logs. I had a log parser going in every match to see who was exploiting, and if I can determine it based on that little amount of information, then so can cryptic who has even more information than I do to examine.
Member since January 2010. I AM NOT A PWE FAN!!!!

Last edited by tfomega; 11-30-2012 at 04:34 PM.
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 363
# 37
11-30-2012, 05:11 PM
Thank you for fixing this bug.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 197
# 38
11-30-2012, 05:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
This whole argument, and several prior, seem to stem from a difference of opinion on the definition of the term "exploit." And, it appears that I have a different definition than most. Perhaps we can put this whole semantic debate behind us, if I offer some clarification.

In my opinion, as a Dev, somebody that is Exploiting is deserving of punishment. By extension, an action should be called an Exploit only if it is an action that the player should be held accountable for, and face punitive measures for.

If a player is utilizing a coding error, potentially without their knowledge, they should not be held accountable for it, in my opinion. And therefore, by my personal definition, that action is not Exploiting. To call it Exploiting would imply that disciplinary actions would be warranted.

My opinion on this may be quite bias, however.

For example, it was my responsibility that the Jem'Hadar Shield was benefiting from Brace-for-Impact Doffs in error at the time they rolled out to the public. It would have been improper - unfair, illogical - to punish players for utilizing that combination of items/powers, when it was MY responsibility that they were malfunctioning. Therefore, doing so was not what I would define as an Exploit.

Lol...by your definition nothing is an exploit then unless someone actually goes in and hacks your programming.

Exactly how was this new version of voldemort different than the last one according to your definition? You guys called it an exploit last time and banned people for even talking about it. Even if this one was much easier to produce, it was still made possible by an error in your coding that allowed it.

Is it safe to assume this is also why you don't punish people that logout in combat and bot/farm? Since your programming allows it, theyre not responsible for their actions?
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 423
# 39
11-30-2012, 05:40 PM
Even I don't think there should be mass bannings. It would just be nice if there could be quicker turn around on major game play effecting "code" issues. Wouldn't hurt either, if Developers could maybe refrain from encouraging players to enjoy the latest bad coding.

Feels like the game would be better off if the Devs appeared half as serious about the quality of the product as the players. Then again, maybe the players would be better off if they accepted that this is an unrealistic expectation.
__________________________________________
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 998
# 40
11-30-2012, 06:22 PM
EDIT: This thing keeps quoting the wrong posts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tfomega View Post
which brings up another point.. if a power is in use on a ship that wouldn't normally have access to that power, you know the player made a conscious choice to use the power at that point by dragging it to their power tray, thereby establishing intent.




DEM3 on a defiant.. grav well, etc.. yes.. the player does in fact know better as you just eluded to.




A simple scan of the database would prove that intent if a power that a ship should never have active is actually used.. that stuff is even in the logs. *I had a log parser going in every match to see who was exploiting, and if I can determine it based on that little amount of information, then so can cryptic who has even more information than I do to examine.
Wow, someone is a little angry. And yes, I figured out how to use it, but I don't PvP, only PvE. Only followed this thread because I found it on Dev tracker. It was fun, the devs gave their blessings to play with it while we had it so of course I was going to use it. How often do you get the Devs blessings to use an exploit on a live server.
Hi, my name is: Elim Garak, Former Cardassian Oppressor

LTS, here since...when did this game launch again?
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