Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,593
# 41
11-30-2012, 05:45 PM
Remember the voyager episode nemesis?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 115
# 42
11-30-2012, 09:40 PM
Meh... I'm gonna name a few as I can't settle on one.

Ferengi - Sure, every show needs a money grabber. This just has a whole race. And they all have annoying voices.

Klingon - Honor this, honor that. "You lack honor filthy human!". Repetetive and annoying.

Kazon - Already mentioned. Cheap knock-off Klingons of the Delta Quadrant.

Vulcans - "You lack logic" The fact that they think they are far superior to any race, because of their "Logic" and no emotions.

Bajorans - All this religious crap just annoyed me. Emmisary this, Prophets that. Almost stopped watching DS9 because of that.

Xindi - The reptillian version. Good god! Shoot them already!

Cardassian - Dukat. He practically ruins the entire race for me.

Quite an extensive list. But there are some characters I like from each races. I.e Worf & Martok (Klingon), Spock & Tuvok (Vulcan), Kira & Bareil (Bajoran), Damar & Garak (Cardassian).
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,104
# 43
11-30-2012, 09:50 PM
Bolians. I've never liked Bolians. Or Deltans.
http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o633/centersolace/189cux9khvl6ojpg_zpsca7ccff0.jpg

So inhumane superweapons, mass murder, and canon nonsense is okay, but speedos are too much for some people.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 228
# 44
11-30-2012, 10:37 PM
You're all a bunch of speciesists!

...no matter how I type that it never looks like a real word.
---
Relax.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,231
# 45
11-30-2012, 11:01 PM
It's gotta be the kazon for me. Totally unconvincing as a threat to Voyager.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mimey2 View Post
Species 8472.

Yes, I really never liked them. ALL they were originally made for was:

1. To pussify the Borg (the first one of many times this would happen on Voyager)
2. To be a 'greater threat' (but this was easily tossed aside because of the ubership Voyager was)
3. To get 7 of 9 on the show.
I have to say I disagree with your points. I mean it's cool that you don't like them, I don't really care about that and you're entitled to your opinion, and I'm also not saying you're wrong for not liking them for those reasons, but from what you've written I just think you've got the wrong idea about 'Scorpion'.

Your first point stresses that the undine pussified the borg. I don't see this as a bad thing per se, but more to the point - they weren't really what the story was 'about' if you get me. They don't pussify the borg so much as present an outside context problem to the borg, in a similar way that the borg are an outside context problem for the Federation. The borg are still a threat, they just don't know how to handle Species 8472/the undine. And Voyager had some good fortune and also the talents of the Doctor towards Maguyvering a solution that the borg, by their nature, couldn't find by themselves.

Although the story for 'Scorpion' stressed that the borg were in dire straits, the borg were still the main antagonists in that two-parter (I'll get to this below) - the undine, I hate to say it, were almost Macguffins, which is a good enough reason to hate them I guess. They're not wholly Macguffins though, because they are more than a plot device, and the narrative gives us information that they're bad guys in their own right. That said, their motivations are left vague and barely explored - which is fine because, as I said above, the story isn't really 'about' them anyway.

Which leads me to your second point. While the undine were a 'greater threat', ultimately the story for 'Scorpion' is about Voyager vs the borg. Remember that after the teaser in part 1, we cut to the Voyager crew and them totally ignorant of the threat of the undine - THEIR main concern is to try to somehow navigate borg territory undetected. When the undine are revealed, there is still tension between Janeway and Chakotay with regards to dealing with the borg - the latter gives us the parable about the fox and the scorpion. Essentially the undine are the 'river' both the fox (Voyager) and the scorpion (the borg) have to cross.

In other words, yes they are an explicit and obvious threat, but it's really the nature of the borg's treachery that forms the drama for the story, typified by the whole uneasy alliance thing that forms the dramatic tension - remember that Chakotay and Janeway argue about whether it is a good idea to trust the borg, and when Janeway gets taken out of commission Chakotay takes matters into his own hands. By doing so, we discover that the borg were actually the aggressors against Species 8472, and that had they not attempted to invade their fluidic space, the undine may never have ever presented themselves as a threat at all to the galaxy.

To put that into perspective, it is the borg's actions that drive the plot forward, it is they who present another source of tension for the crew who aren't just preoccupied with dealing with the undine, and finally once the threat of Species 8472 is neutralised, the borg turn on Voyager immediately - which forms the climax for the story. This is the role of a villain in any story.

As for your third point, well... yeah, she had to be brought on the show somehow. Of course I quite like Seven so I don't really see this as a point against Species 8472.

Last edited by stofsk; 12-01-2012 at 05:32 AM. Reason: Spelling, grammar, paragraphs - edited for greater clarity.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 5,628
# 46
12-01-2012, 12:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stofsk View Post

I have to say I disagree with your points. I mean it's cool that you don't like them, I don't really care about that and you're entitled to your opinion, and I'm also not saying you're wrong for not liking them for those reasons, but from what you've written I just think you've got the wrong idea for 'Scorpion'.

Your first point stresses that the undine pussified the borg. I don't see this as a bad thing per se, but more to the point - they weren't really what the story was 'about' if you get me. They don't pussify the borg so much as present an outside context problem to the borg, in a similar way that the borg are an outside context problem for the Federation. The borg are still a threat, they just don't know how to handle Species 8472/the undine. And Voyager had some good fortune and also the talents of the Doctor towards Maguyvering a solution that the borg, by their nature, couldn't find by themselves. Although the story for 'Scorpion' stressed that the borg were in dire straits, the borg were still the main antagonists in that two-parter (I'll get to this in the next paragraph) - the undine, I hate to say it, were almost Macguffins, which is a good enough reason to hate them I guess. (they're not wholly Macguffins because they are more than a plot device, and the narrative gives us information that they're bad guys in their own right, but that said their motivations are left vague for the most part - which is fine because, as I said above, the story isn't really 'about' them anyway)

Which leads me to your second point. While the undine were a 'greater threat', ultimately the story for 'Scorpion' is about Voyager vs the borg. Remember that after the teaser in part 1, we cut to the Voyager crew and them totally ignorant of the threat of the undine - THEIR main concern is to try to somehow navigate borg territory undetected. When the undine are revealed, there is still tension between Janeway and Chakotay - the latter gives us the parable about the fox and the scorpion. Essentially the undine are the 'river' both the fox (Voyager) and the scorpion (the borg) have to cross. In other words, yes they are the explicit and obvious threat, but it's really the nature of the borg's treachery that forms the climax of the story, and the whole uneasy alliance thing that forms the dramatic tension for much of the story as well - remember that Chakotay and Janeway argue about whether it is a good idea to trust the borg, and when Janeway gets taken out of commission Chakotay takes matters into his own hands. By doing so we discover that the borg were actually the aggressors against Species 8472, and that had they not attempted to invade their fluidic space, the undine may never have ever presented themselves as a threat at all to the galaxy. To put that into perspective, it is the borg's actions that drive the plot forward, it is they who present another source of tension for the crew who aren't just preoccupied with dealing with the undine, and finally once the threat of Species 8472 is neutralised, the borg turn on Voyager immediately. All of which is part of what a villain's role is in a story.

As for 3, well... yeah, she had to be brought on the show somehow. Of course I quite like Seven so I don't really see this as a point against Species 8472.
Hmm, well, perhaps I was putting the wrong wording on my post about them. Perhaps the best way I should've said was...'I never really liked Species 8472...as portrayed in Voyager'. Still for the same reasons as mentioned before though.

I DO like them as a species and how they aren't just 'another humanoid' race, not to mention how...absolute they are in their thoughts about wiping out everything.

That said, you bring up quite a few good points, even if you didn't paragraph very much. :p

True that the Borg were always the real bad guy, but while I got that, it just seemed like the Undine still were there as the reason the Borg were being bad, but at least the Borg got taught a lesson about not being invincible. It's why we have Tac cubes now really.

Species 8472 even after Scorpion was over, were used so infrequently. The episode, Prey for example, just re-used the Hirogen 'evil, nasty hunters' thing again, just on one of them.

Or In the Flesh, which...to me, was probably the most annoying of the episodes, because it tried to...humanize them. Both literally and figuratively. They were shown as humans, and Voyager, through just one episode, made them go from 'the most dangerous foe we've ever seen', to...'everything's ok, the threat is completely averted'.

*Le sigh* But...if it wasn't for the episode, we probably wouldn't have all the info and intrigue about them that we have in the game.

Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,454
# 47
12-01-2012, 12:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by startrekron View Post
Pakleds. How did a race of people with the intellectual capacity of a 3 year old ever get to space and are able to remain there? I think I remember that they steal technology from other races but how stupid must those races be to be tricked by the Pakled.
Pakleds are not stupid. They just have body language and vocabulary that come across that way. They're social manipulators, which is how they managed to get ahold of warp capable crafts without developing the tech themselves.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,231
# 48
12-01-2012, 05:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mimey2 View Post
That said, you bring up quite a few good points, even if you didn't paragraph very much.
I swear it didn't look like a BIG HUEG EFFORTPOST in the text window. Hopefully it reads better now.

The reason I felt a need to jump in with my observations was because I recently rewatched that two-parter and was far more appreciative of it now than I was when I first watched it (which was basically when it first aired). Hell I didn't even know they ever reappeared in Voyager, I haven't seen much of it. Voyager... it's... like a diamond in the rough. There's quite a few gems there but there's a hell of a lot of crap surrounding it. A lot of good ideas badly executed, or go-nowhere plots, or missed opportunities.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 224
# 49
12-01-2012, 07:41 PM
Wesley Crusher! Nothing was so wanting me to stop watching Trek as that.
Career Officer
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 177
# 50
12-04-2012, 09:15 PM
Neelix.

Whatever his species was.

So many reasons, it's like a glowing ball of intense dislike. I can't name one thing, I'd go blind if I stared at it too long trying to make something out.
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