Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 560
# 21
11-28-2012, 02:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicha0 View Post
It kinda seems fair in a way...
Tactical is the most gimped on the ground and gets the largest buff

Sci gets crap as they already insane on the ground (broken abilities aside)

Eng gets a moderate boost to a moderately useful kit. They are still insanely over powered with enemy neutralization.
Just stop. You're only embarrassing yourself.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 694
# 22
11-28-2012, 04:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by badname834854 View Post
Good points, but Fuse Armor and Weapons Malfunctions does work on her. She however, has 2 attacks, so it only shuts down one of them....

Also, you can get some use from a transphasic if you just run close to her and plant it, lol
Fuse Armor doesn't stop or slow her, but still deals a bit of damage. Shield Recharge and Equipment Diag are the main reasons I prefer this Kit in her room.

Cover Shield, Shield Recharge, RP2S, ESC (MACO Set Power), and a nice corner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nicha0 View Post
Eng gets a moderate boost to a moderately useful kit. They are still insanely over powered with enemy neutralization.
It's really not as "amazing" as DPS mongrels would have you believe
I'll stop kicking that horse when the bugs fixed. Until then as a paying consumer, I will voice my opinion.

Last edited by gypsyblade; 11-28-2012 at 04:13 PM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 120
# 23
11-28-2012, 11:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by inputend21 View Post
Um,no Fab Kit for DPS out shines Enemy Neutralization,lets see 3 turrets,3 quantum mortars,and 3 support drones? really man really a Noob kit,no pros that know mechanics of the engineer run this kit,E.N. kit is decent for damage,but no where near the DPS of a Fab Kit,Oh and now the fab kits get flamethrowers on the Turrets.
You are assuming you have several minutes to pull out 3 support drones, 3 turrets and 3 mortars. With my fleet, we move so fast, with such high DPS, that we can finish IGE, KAGE, and CGE in 30 min. We never stop running in an STF. My tac averaged 239 DPS through out a full Colony Invasion mission. He can averages 170 DPS in an STF. I can't get it higher because the borg are too far apart.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gypsyblade View Post
I use both the Fab and EN kits on my Engineers..

I've heard all the arguments as to why the EN Kit is "soooo much better"

It's all situational, lets face it, when you need to stay ranged the EN kit falls short of the Fab. The EN kit is great for aggressive gameplay, but, you're pretty much useless throughout most of IGE. It's great in CGE... both the Fab and EN kits do fine in KAGE, EN being better on the nodes and Fab being better in the room.

Just to add the EN kit is almost useless on Rebecca, whereas the Equipment Technician really shines in this room.

Again all just opinion.....

DPS this, DPS that.... argument is invalid when you think utility and what's the most useful at the given point of the mission.
Yes, the situation can determine what is best and it was very useful until they removed the gains from kit switching. I am really not interested in going into the specifics but trust me. Enemy Neutralization with a good team can deal 20K damage in 20 seconds, on the move. Massive spike damage but you are VERY dependent on a tactical officer helping you. You also have control on where you want the damage to be. So with the right team Enemy Neutralization becomes very powerful.

I understand how the fabrication kit is great when you are pugging it. It helps you sit back and avoid the majority of the damage, since your pets have massive "Threat Generation" and they get the focus fire. But with a well balanced team you will hardly be doing anything with a fabrication kit, since the team moves so fast!


Quote:
Originally Posted by pottsey5g View Post
Not sure where you get 40dps from. In 20 seconds that?s 24 shots from 3 morters at 622.5 damage per shot. So that?s 14,940 damage in 20 seconds or 747dps without crits. Are you playing Elite as I rarely have morter miss's on Elite.

Morters have such long range they will hit far more then 1 volly and 1 group. Turrets I agree are hard to use with fast teams but morters you just dump on ground and use them for the next 3+ rooms.
40dps comes from logs and yes Elite is all we do. Well Mortars are slow in their fire rate. They usually pick the closest target first and the closest target gets dropped first, by your team. By the time the Mortars acquire the next target, your team is already clearing that group. In a slow pugging group this can still work. But in a fast and powerful team your mortars will hardly be doing anything.

To give you an idea, in IGE, we split up in the Queens room, 3 people go left and 2 people go right and each group drops 2 generators. This is usually a great place to have mortars. They can clear platforms, BUT, with my group we drop the generators and the Queen in about 1 min flat. No amount of mortars will keep up with that pace and be effective. Again, great for slow groups, horrible for groups packing a punch.

But high end PvE missions are done as a team not as an individual.

Quote:
Originally Posted by diogene0 View Post
Fire team has always been an ok pve and a good pvp kit. It's still inferior to squad leader for STFs or to operative when you play selfishly in fleet actions, but with motion acceletator, that's arguably the best tac kit in game now.
Squad leader is a great kit, but in no way does it match up to fireteam kit for its diverse abilities. Squad Leader use to be alot more useful, before we all started running with Mk XII armor, but the diminishing returns really hit us hard.
I have done the math on this and Squad Leader doesn't offer as much as it appears to. But your play style will affect the usefulness. If you are pugging it then Squad Leader might be a more comfortable kit. Same goes with Operative.

But Fireteam kit, with a fast moving team, and Tactical Officers with 6 or more in Squad Command, will yield top end DPS values with crazy survivability. Suppressing fire stacks AND gets buffed as you buff up. Super Buffed suppressing fire from several tactical officers, with a Science officer's dampening field, will make Armek look like a kid's toy. Imagine Pulsewave hits in the 4K range and Plasma grenades in the 3K range. Imagine chaining this kind of damage throughout an STF. With the new fireteam kit, on my tac, I can now close those big gaps between borg groups and get out even higher sustained DPS values.

I am going to love the new fireteam kit, but the engineer kit and the science kit will leave A LOT to desire. I won't be playing my Sci or Engi that much, if at all.

Just for interest sake: The Survivability/DPS combination of the tactical officer is superior to that of the science and engineer, at this point in the game, in a PvP situation. I am listing the PvP situation since it is the easiest method to directly compare the classes to each other. This was tested by Person A and Person B each playing their Sci and Engineer against the opponents tactical officer. The Tactical officer won the most often. With both player A and B playing all 3 classes, it avoided one player being better than the other in one class, affecting the results. So as it stand in the game at the moment, the Tactical Officer is contributing the most in a PvE senario, a balanced team can still be more effective than a pure Tactical Officer Team. Motion Accelerator and Plasma Grenade IV is going to out perform what Engineers and Science officers are receiving on their kits.

Sorry for the long winded reply but since I am the OP, I felt that unexplained points in my OP needed to be addressed. If anyone is interested in how to output high sustained damage as a team with great survivability you can PM me @Pug01. I am more than willing to demonstrate the "secrets" to perfecting your ground game, OR you could show me what you feel is effective in your playstyle. I am always willing to learn something new about the ground game. I have pure ground toons of each class with each kit and just about every type of gun or device.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,202
# 24
11-30-2012, 08:20 AM
Hm no i can't play a stf without squad leader if no other tac is using it in the team, just because it has the only tac heal ability. And it's also a great buff. I'm just using two assault squad officers doffs to rez allies and to give a huge boost to my heals. I don't mean that fire team sucks but there is always situations where you'll need to buff your whole team instead of just buffing yourself. Of course squad leader has major flaws, such as the smoke grenade (although it's great when you pug) and just pa photon grenade but i like buffing my team instead of just myself. It's more effective on the long run, but if someone has this kit already then i happily switch to fire team just because it offers even better buffs in this situation.

I'm definitely not talking about a full team of tacs (that's a weird team anyway); with enemy neutralization tacs won't do any damage anyway because the eng will already wipe out the most dangerous targets and the sci will debuff it like mad. My main char is a sci and trust me when i debuff something or someone it doesn't last long.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 120
# 25
11-30-2012, 01:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by diogene0 View Post
Hm no i can't play a stf without squad leader if no other tac is using it in the team, just because it has the only tac heal ability. And it's also a great buff. I'm just using two assault squad officers doffs to rez allies and to give a huge boost to my heals. I don't mean that fire team sucks but there is always situations where you'll need to buff your whole team instead of just buffing yourself. Of course squad leader has major flaws, such as the smoke grenade (although it's great when you pug) and just pa photon grenade but i like buffing my team instead of just myself. It's more effective on the long run, but if someone has this kit already then i happily switch to fire team just because it offers even better buffs in this situation.

I'm definitely not talking about a full team of tacs (that's a weird team anyway); with enemy neutralization tacs won't do any damage anyway because the eng will already wipe out the most dangerous targets and the sci will debuff it like mad. My main char is a sci and trust me when i debuff something or someone it doesn't last long.
Science officers are the masters of debuffs. Their captain skills can combined do more than -100 Damage resistance and negative resistance does not have diminishing returns. So if an enemy starts at 0 resistance, say to plasma, and you debuff them with -100 damage resistance, they will end up having -100% damage resistance to plasma. Now you are doing double plasma damage. It is something to consider in any team makeup. Another 50% damage increase at the top end, might not be as useful as another 50% debuff on your target. The new science kit has nothing to do with this though.

But lets do the math on the diminishing returns on the tactical officer side. Squad Leader has Rally Cry and Overwatch. If your resistance starts at about 44%, which is common if you are running Maco or Omega sets. Here is what happens when you run these two Buffs:
No Buffs: 44%
Rally Cry: 48.7%
Overwatch: 52.4%
Rally Cry + Overwatch: 54.6%

So at best you are looking at a 10% damage resistance increase, yielding a 10% damage reduction. We will look at the healing benefit a bit later.

Rally Cry lasts for 15 seconds but has a 2 minute cooldown. Under Tactical Initiative it doesn't allow you to chain it for a period of time. Instead you can go 15 seconds on and 15 seconds off, then 15 seconds on again under one tactical initiative. Not the most ideal for peak attack times.

Overwatch lasts for 30 seconds with a 1 minute 30 second cooldown. Under one Tactical Initiative it can be chained for 60 seconds. GREAT!

Lets look at just one skill from the fire team kit. When I buff up my Suppressing fire, on my Fire Team kit, Suppressing fire reaches -67% damage reduction to all enemies that I hit. At its lowest my Suppressing Fire is -30% damage reduction. Compared to the 10% you gain from above, the suppressing fire is a lot better when you are looking at the resulting hit point hits. Furthermore: With a good spec you can chain Suppressing fire indefinitely, without tactical initiative. So as a tactical officer, you are helping your team survive MORE with a solid buffed Suppressing fire. This is why I like the Omega gun. Quite often I will burn my Ambush with suppressing fire on a whole group, just so that the whole group of borg won't do any damage. Keep in mind, this is an ALL DAMAGE reduction. The borg's Fuse Armor also does less damage. Ever survived an assimilation because your health didn't go low enough, and you are running around with a green glow on you? Well Suppressing Fire and Dampening field are the two skills that can facilitate this.



To avoid the long post you can stop reading this post at this point. The remained of the post is a combination of bragging/details on how we run and problems I foresee:
Even if you add in the Rally Cry's heal, you will still not do as much damage mitigation as a Suppressing Fire. Furthermore Rally Cry's heals, with its long cooldown is really sad. I do like the Crit Chance and Crit Severity, but with the correct gear and team we already run above 30% crit chance. This in un-buffled! In fact with my one setup I run at a 49.4% crit chance, un-buffed! With my team buffed up we run at 56% crit chance. This is without Rally Cry and is using gear, and Captain skills. I don't want to stretch out the post further by going into the math for damage increase resulting from Rally Cry's crit boosts compared to Fire Team kit boosts. The main idea you can take away from it is that you can achieve crit damage from other gear and kit and then use your kit powers to gain focused and controlled damage. If I want to kill a specific boss fast, I can do it by timing my ambush strike, Fire on my Mark, Battle Strategies. On top of this my crit boosts are still in affect and might allow the drop to happen even faster. But I don't have to rely on my crit.

As a tactical officer you should be carrying Hypos and in an STF, also Immunosupport Nanites. Those should be the main source of keeping your hit points up. In a balanced team, your healer should be responsible for the remainder of your hit points.

Just from last night's STF run we had 3 tacs doing way above 100 DPS. We had over 7 minutes left on Infected Ground Elite optional. We ran a full Tactical Team. No Science or Engineer. 2 of the Tacs were dedicated to Supressing Fire Spray, therefore shutting down all incoming DPS. Give me motion accelerator and 7 minutes will become a joke. We are dropping Borg so fast that we are eating into each other's DPS at the moment. I cannot get to the next borg fast enough to kill them. Seriously, Yoda's light saber don't do much compared to where I will be with motion accelerator! I am going to love it!

What will Science officer and Engineers have to offer with Xenobiologist and Fabrication kit? They won't even be in the same room as me, since I will be 3 rooms ahead. Don't think this is a rare thing. We have several players with Tactical Officers that can pull this off. Min Maxing your build is looking at where the over all resulting damage increase occurs and where the over all damage reduction occurs. It would be better if they start putting groups of Elite Tactical Drones into STFs. That way pure DPS stomping won't be so simple and instead we will need those Science and Engineer officers. BUT, They will still not do well with the kits listed above. More than ever the Engineer will need that WM. Under Tactical Initiative an Engineer can let loose a WM every 4 seconds.
Ensign
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 5
# 26
11-30-2012, 01:38 PM
Fabrication Kit, great for pugging or running with low skill players.
With the Enemy Neutralization Kit you can control where your dps is and deliver a high spike to the borg and continue on your way as well as you don't have agro that is not wanted, that can happen from the Fab Kit.
Fire Team Kit is an awesome enhancement very dangerous now if you want to plow through stfs and farm them like studs, now all we need is for the rest of the kits from the sci and engi's to catch up for me to have a reason to dust off my toons.

Xeno kit is super lame, always will be lame, nothing else needs to be said about it, come on cryptic give us kits that are more useful to us or give us all types of kits that can be made by the romulans. These that are here range from great fire team 12, mediocre Fab Kit 12, and straight useless Xeno 12. Give us the variety of kits and some different mods on them, or do you want us all to run the same kits, personally variety is much better, but that is just me.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 13,948
# 27
11-30-2012, 04:30 PM
Well.... let's evaluate Eng kits in terms of Mine Trap.

Fabrication seems to be the best simply because it gives you awesome crowd control. It's simple really, drop turrets then you have less to worry about from that side.

Other kits with turrets are good too.

worst?

Enemy Neutralization isn't worst. Mines work fine on vamps, but you can only use them on a few enemies at a time. Enemy debuff kits get the worst simply because only Alphas and Betas are tough enough for it to not be a total waste of time. With adults and hatchlings, just kill it and go find another(usually finding another takes about 0-3 secs).
HAIL HYDRA!

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Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,202
# 28
11-30-2012, 06:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pug02 View Post
snip
We can do 6 minutes left on IGE with squad leader kits. Your post was really really... Bickering. This kit is a great STF one, period. You can buff your team instad of buffing yourself. Engs deal damage, scis have to debuff and tacs buff the team. It works pretty well and i'm ready to prove it to you whenever you want.

Fire team with motion accelerator might be better though, but it'll take some time to see it in game.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 120
# 29
11-30-2012, 10:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by diogene0 View Post
We can do 6 minutes left on IGE with squad leader kits. Your post was really really... Bickering. This kit is a great STF one, period. You can buff your team instad of buffing yourself. Engs deal damage, scis have to debuff and tacs buff the team. It works pretty well and i'm ready to prove it to you whenever you want.

Fire team with motion accelerator might be better though, but it'll take some time to see it in game.
Now this is what I am really interested in. I know the math, and I attempted to show it in the previous post. Even with all my logs and the data to back it up I might still be wrong, SO in the end someone might have a better way of using a kit AND that does interest me. We can both put a 4 man team together with the other person in the 5th spot (not allowed to do anything) and run an IGE, for example. I will capture logs and we can evaluate.

OR, we can do it PvP style. I know a lot of people don't like this method, but it is quick, dirty, and very effective in looking at DPS/Survivability blends.

Keep in mind that I am not saying Squad Leader is a bad kit, I am trying to point out that it isn't the best kit. Especially for a fast moving group. Grenade Satchel would be a bad kit.....

PM me in game, Pug01.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,202
# 30
12-01-2012, 09:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pug02 View Post
Now this is what I am really interested in. I know the math, and I attempted to show it in the previous post. Even with all my logs and the data to back it up I might still be wrong, SO in the end someone might have a better way of using a kit AND that does interest me. We can both put a 4 man team together with the other person in the 5th spot (not allowed to do anything) and run an IGE, for example. I will capture logs and we can evaluate.

OR, we can do it PvP style. I know a lot of people don't like this method, but it is quick, dirty, and very effective in looking at DPS/Survivability blends.

Keep in mind that I am not saying Squad Leader is a bad kit, I am trying to point out that it isn't the best kit. Especially for a fast moving group. Grenade Satchel would be a bad kit.....

PM me in game, Pug01.
We could do that. I'm not saying a full team with squad leader is better, but a tac with squad leader in the team will benefit to the team instead of just buffinf himself. Other tacs can use fire team or operative, since the team bonuses given by this kit don't stack.

This kit isn't a pvp one though, it's a purely pve one. In pvp you don't have to face sustained, constant (and scripted) fire, you're facing people who can OS you and you need an instant dps instead of some more team resistance. With several tacs in the team the typical configuration is one with squad leader and the other one with operative/fire team. Against the borg it's a great combo.

Last edited by diogene0; 12-01-2012 at 09:21 AM.
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