Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 9,336
# 1 I had to laugh. I had to...
12-02-2012, 03:20 AM
...when days later, I still had my palmprint on my forehead.

I've deleted and rerolled far too many times. With that, I've deleted anniversary ships - FE BOFFs/gear - little things here and there - etc, etc, etc: the general it would have been generally smarter to have just bought more character slots and/or respecs. But hey, I was standing my ground on how expensive the respecs were and that PWE/Cryptic wasn't going to get my money or time that way.

S7 though - and - well, the changes to the sets. I'd have to say that the toons I deleted just before S7 are the toons I miss the most (broken builds they had, I miss them the most - even more than doing EWP powerslides in a Ody).

Consider the Mk X Borg set - worse than the preS7 Borg set.

Deflector 14k Dil
Engine 14k Dil
Shield 14k Dil

Consider the free Borg console, eh? 15k Dil

So that's 57k Dil for something (worse) than what you could pick up in a night's play for free. With the current exchange rate, that's around 509 Zen. For something folks could get for free in a night's play - even with the random chance for Omega/MACO (I had one character with full sets Mk X/Mk XI of Omega/MACO and another without a single drop) - that's going to be over a week on a single toon of Dil farming (where that Dil might have gone to something else) to get to where you could have before.

And that's just a case of looking at Mk X - will anybody even touch that or just wait until they get to Mk XI or Mk XII, eh?

But still, it was a I'm in no big rush sort of thing - knowing that it was going to be a wee while before I ever got back into PvP (though, I did have some quick pops early on for the Dil before I felt that I was just actively AFKing because of a lack of gear and decided not to queue)..

...so why the post? Well, I went ahead and decided to unlock a store item to get an idea of what that looked like. Had seen that various things were costing around 14-15-16k and wanted to get an idea on the stats/cost.

Romulan Mk XI Beams.

I had to laugh. I had to...

20,540 Dil for a 2.5% disruptor proc. The 2.5% proc's the only difference between these beams and those you can get free from a mission ([Acc]x2). Sure, these Disruptor-Plasma Beams are better than the Plasma-Disruptor Beams (+12.5% Acc, better damage, etc) - but it's still just a 2.5% disruptor proc compared to the normal ACCx2 beams - for 20.5k Dil.

@$1.80 a beam (for that 2.5% proc) and 8 beams... but wait, before you start farming or break out your wallet - don't forget these are the Mk XI. There's Mk XII...

So what on Earth does this have to do with PvP?

Consider the alt, reroll, or new player... are they going to break out the wallet or farm the Dil needed to get the basic Borg/Omega/MACO before they queue up? Are they going to bother gearing up? Might they not even know?

So they show up in their "quest gear" - and - yeah...

Used to be a case of saying go grind a little PvE - do some STFs - come back tomorrow. That's no longer the case. Now it's a case of saying go grind Rep, Dil, EC (because it starts to get expensive to do the rep) and come back...er...in a month or so? Cause any of that Dil they might have been farming for ships or consoles, well... so yeah.

So how many will be "actively" or even passively just AFKing for the Dil...? Whether they're undergeared and trying or they're just sitting there waiting for it to end... some walking away, those staying causing others to walk away... yeah, meh...

Like I mentioned in another thread, STO's not really P2W. STO's become P2P - it's not a sub model, but you're going to be paying all the same. Sure, there's an element of PM2WM - but F2P's history (unless you play by yourself or with others that ignore that aspect).

It's kind of funny, mind you - even the folks that buy Zen for Dil are complaining. 111-113 Dil per Zen - they no longer feel like they're getting their money's worth. Over a 45D/Z drop since S7 launched... remember when it was trading for almost three times as much?

I had to laugh. I had to...

/rant

edit: Oh yeah, forgot to say that if you're even going to consider the Reman set - might want to grab your Reman shields before they pull them like they did the other stuff. Heck, for that matter - I wouldn't be surprised if they start pulling anything that's close in power to something they're selling... are those Plasma ACCx2 Beams on the cutting block? Only time will tell...only time will tell, and I had to laugh - I had to...

edit2: This needed a TLDR.

S7 presents an unfortunate gear gate in PvP for new players, alt characters, or rerolls that appears to reflect a major philosophical change on Cryptic's part and the heavy influence of what one expects from Perfect World.

PvP is not PvE - where you can slum your way in replays or STFs until you can do ESTFs. PvP's elite difficulty right off the back.
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder
Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethaen, M.Qin - Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba

Last edited by virusdancer; 12-02-2012 at 04:18 AM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 350
# 2
12-02-2012, 04:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
...when days later, I still had my palmprint on my forehead.

I've deleted and rerolled far too many times. With that, I've deleted anniversary ships - FE BOFFs/gear - little things here and there - etc, etc, etc: the general it would have been generally smarter to have just bought more character slots and/or respecs. But hey, I was standing my ground on how expensive the respecs were and that PWE/Cryptic wasn't going to get my money or time that way.
I could never do something like that. I even keep my very first toons who have useless traits. After investing time in a char it would just hurt to delete all that. By now I have 10 max lvl chars, 5 KDF and 5 fed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Consider the Mk X Borg set - worse than the preS7 Borg set.

Deflector 14k Dil
Engine 14k Dil
Shield 14k Dil

Consider the free Borg console, eh? 15k Dil

So that's 57k Dil for something (worse) than what you could pick up in a night's play for free. With the current exchange rate, that's around 509 Zen. For something folks could get for free in a night's play - even with the random chance for Omega/MACO (I had one character with full sets Mk X/Mk XI of Omega/MACO and another without a single drop) - that's going to be over a week on a single toon of Dil farming (where that Dil might have gone to something else) to get to where you could have before.
Yes that hurts. If you want MK X 2 piece borg + maco you need T2. That alone takes about a week. Now to get those 57k dil you need 8 days. At least STFs now give about the same amount of dil as before and the item drops are back.
One week is still not that bad but before you simply needed 15 elite stfs for 30 edc, assuming you do not get a shield drop. That means one weekend would be enough, now you have to wait. Also 15 elite stfs gave you nice loot and dilithium, now you have to spend your dilithium.

Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Romulan Mk XI Beams.

I had to laugh. I had to...

20,540 Dil for a 2.5% disruptor proc. The 2.5% proc's the only difference between these beams and those you can get free from a mission ([Acc]x2). Sure, these Disruptor-Plasma Beams are better than the Plasma-Disruptor Beams (+12.5% Acc, better damage, etc) - but it's still just a 2.5% disruptor proc compared to the normal ACCx2 beams - for 20.5k Dil.

@$1.80 a beam (for that 2.5% proc) and 8 beams... but wait, before you start farming or break out your wallet - don't forget these are the Mk XI. There's Mk XII...
Do these beams deal disruptor dmg or plasma dmg? Disruptor dmg and plasma+disruptor proc would be nice but you could still go for the plasma proc from a cheaper embassy console and stick to exchange weapons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
So what on Earth does this have to do with PvP?

Consider the alt, reroll, or new player... are they going to break out the wallet or farm the Dil needed to get the basic Borg/Omega/MACO before they queue up? Are they going to bother gearing up? Might they not even know?
Well as a new player in any MMO you should expect that you need to gear up at lvl 50. While the grind in STO increases it is still not that bad compared to other games. If it is your first char the STFs might even be fun, you can experiment a bit with builds and after about a week you are ready to go.
Its more annoying for alts. I don't have the time for all my toons to farm rep. At least the already have their 2 piece borg + shield.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 9,336
# 3
12-02-2012, 04:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aetam1 View Post
Do these beams deal disruptor dmg or plasma dmg? Disruptor dmg and plasma+disruptor proc would be nice but you could still go for the plasma proc from a cheaper embassy console and stick to exchange weapons.
Plasma Damage
2.5% Plasma Proc
2.5% Disruptor Proc

As opposed to the mission Plasma-Disruptor Hybrids which are Disruptor Damage with the procs. The PDH have a +7.5% Accuracy and lowish damage compared to Plasma Beams with +20% Accuracy you can get.

Wish there was a way to see what's available with an unlock rather than having to unlock it. At some point, folks will have unlocked it all and posted over on STOwiki... but as it stands, it took 90 Romulan Marks, 10k EXP, 20 Industrial Energy Cells, and 20 Shield Generators to see what the Beam Arrays and Dual Beams would be.

It will take the same to see what each of them are.

And don't forget it's a 40 hour project to do each store unlock...meh.
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder
Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethaen, M.Qin - Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 9,336
# 4
12-02-2012, 04:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aetam1 View Post
I could never do something like that. I even keep my very first toons who have useless traits. After investing time in a char it would just hurt to delete all that. By now I have 10 max lvl chars, 5 KDF and 5 fed.
I try not to think about it, lol.

Many games when they make a change - will do resets/respecs. That's not the case here.

At the current rate, it's 56.5k Dil per respec. A week's grinding on a single toon for the respec. How many times are things being changed, stealth nerfed/buffed, etc?

I suppose I need to go with a very bland build - instead of trying to min/max for a particular ship, etc, etc, etc. So that's my own fault.

edit: BTW, when it was @160 - it was 10 days for a respec. Almost two weeks when it was ~200. Around 20 days when it was ~300 D/Z. I can't think of another game (though it's likely) where you'd have to spend that much time farming for a respec or break out the wallet to pay for it. It was a principle thing. It's like I said in one of the improving PvP threads about the cost of respecs - if it was only 250 Zen or even 125 Zen for a respec - they would have actually gotten money out of me for them. As it stands, they've gotten $0 from me for respecs - either directly or supporting their buy Zen for Dil program in farming Dil for their folks that buy Zen for Dil.
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder
Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethaen, M.Qin - Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba

Last edited by virusdancer; 12-02-2012 at 05:02 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,325
# 5
12-02-2012, 05:10 AM
I think what Season 7 did to us all as an entire gaming community, was take out the ability to make new meaningful characters. Gone are the days when you could level a new toon in a weekend, spend Monday night with your friends doing STFs and be all set to start PVPing on the Tuesday. If you want the gear we took for granted then expect a week or two of chasing after marks, dilithium, doing the rep system, then buying MACO shields and stuff.

That all sounds like too much work for me, and i'm sure i'm not alone. Pre-S7 you could make a new toon and get STF drops, but for me that've just taken the re-playability out of the game. Which in itself was a from of endgame content.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 102
# 6
12-02-2012, 06:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aquitaine985 View Post
I think what Season 7 did to us all as an entire gaming community, was take out the ability to make new meaningful characters. Gone are the days when you could level a new toon in a weekend, spend Monday night with your friends doing STFs and be all set to start PVPing on the Tuesday. If you want the gear we took for granted then expect a week or two of chasing after marks, dilithium, doing the rep system, then buying MACO shields and stuff.

That all sounds like too much work for me, and i'm sure i'm not alone. Pre-S7 you could make a new toon and get STF drops, but for me that've just taken the re-playability out of the game. Which in itself was a from of endgame content.
And all that's before you even get to the rep passives themselves, at which point it not only discourages making new alts, but even maintaining existing alts that already are geared out. Then to add insult on top of it all, patching out minor shortcuts to the grind like Acamar for the patrol daily seems to take priority and get faster dev response then fixing real issues like known exploits and broken starbase projects.
_________________________
S.O.B | -Show Me Your Critz-
Svarog | Veles | et al.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 908
# 7
12-02-2012, 07:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post

So that's 57k Dil for something (worse) than what you could pick up in a night's play for free. With the current exchange rate, that's around 509 Zen. For something folks could get for free in a night's play - even with the random chance for Omega/MACO (I had one character with full sets Mk X/Mk XI of Omega/MACO and another without a single drop) - that's going to be over a week on a single toon of Dil farming (where that Dil might have gone to something else) to get to where you could have before.
Yeah this is hitting me too,

In a stroke of genious/stupidity i arranged.. 'transporter accidents' for two of my toons, a ferengi female and leathean, for the episode re-runs in December

Now i have two nice toons.. well one slightly botched one with skills, but it was more a melorazine-test :p,

But getting into stfs.. and the rehash-fleet-reputation rubbish is irritating the life out of me!

Grind some elite stfs (feeling a bit guilty im popping a lot) without the asimilated set or mkx gear, which we have to pay for and essentially wait 3days to BUY the flipping things after the grind is done. After a week? of gate-grind to unlock the ability to buy? GRAHH i really dislike.

i think all im bothering with on these two new toons is the assim engines for faster sector space. can not be bothered with Energy Credit sink that is the repuation system, then paying waaaay too much dilithium for sub-par equipment.

On a pve note, i think this is why it takes ages for a stf pug to begin now (compared to pre S7) and when you get in your blessed with bad players too! ..kage me in jemmy set, 4 other people clueless.

but yeah, not good overall, really dislike reputations, and the fearful thing? i vaugely rember/get the idea that other things, like a dominion/jemhadar repuatation set will be the future. pay dilithium for 'pre stfs sets' that takes a week to get when you could have gotten a better grade, for free, in less time.

oy...
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 421
# 8
12-02-2012, 01:09 PM
There was a time when PvP was easily accessible, limited only by ones drive to improve his or her skills. All of this time gated, rep grinding stuff really only makes PvP that much less accessible to not just new characters but new players in general.
__________________________________________
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,395
# 9
12-02-2012, 01:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevehale View Post
There was a time when PvP was easily accessible, limited only by ones drive to improve his or her skills. All of this time gated, rep grinding stuff really only makes PvP that much less accessible to not just new characters but new players in general.
It might be time to start looking for ways to work "around" the system they've put in place-find ways to use the sets that are NOT gated by the timegated repgrind.

iirc that'd be:

Jem'hadar set

Breen Set

Aegis Set

The days of easy upgrades to top-shelf gear are gone, what we're left with, is the choice of grinding endlessly on the treadmill for PWE's amusement, or figuring out how to make our own fun with the scraps they've overlooked.

Alternately, maybe someone's got some data on Fleetstore gear-there's a grind there, too, but at least you're doing it in concert with the people you're likely to be teaming with in PvP...
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."

Last edited by patrickngo; 12-02-2012 at 01:32 PM.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 421
# 10
12-02-2012, 02:02 PM
There are plenty of inferior options for equipment, team sets ups, bridge officer powers. It's not that there are no other options, it's just that other options put you at a distinct disadvantage.

Inferior alternatives don't increase accessibility.
__________________________________________
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:50 PM.