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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,360
# 31
10-15-2012, 10:52 AM
Same layout as the VA Defiant, so this is not a complaint that's new to the fleet version. For me, it's not a complaint at all. I find it neither wasteful nor useless. Then again, I don't mind being "forced" to include a beam bank and torpedo launchers. I'd put a Tactical officer there even if it was a universal slot.


With that layout, I am able to run:

Beam Overload III, Cannon Rapid Fire III, Torpedo High Yield III. (alpha strike)

Beam Fire at Will I, Cannon Scatter Volley I, Torpedo Spread II. (crowd control/secondary attack)

So, with a third Tactical bridge officer, I can also have Torpedo Spread I for the aft launcher as I pass the target, and still have room for Tactical Team I.

Pretty versatile, and I almost always have a little something extra for a target.


Weapon loadout, if you're curious:

Antiproton Dual Heavy Cannons Mk XII (anti-Borg) x 2
Antiproton Dual Beam Bank Mk XI x 1
Quantum Torpedo Launcher Mk XII (anti-Borg) x 1

Antiproton Turret Mk XII (anti-Borg) x 2
Quantum Torpedo Launcher (the Regent version with 180 degree firing arc)

Sometimes I need DPS, sometimes I need burst damage. Not exactly a focused, specialized build, but I can usually BS my way through most tasks that way.

Last edited by hanover2; 10-15-2012 at 10:57 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,119
# 32
10-15-2012, 11:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by partizan81 View Post
edit: additionally, if you're not using torps, you should be. All cannons are nice DPS but your power levels can be problematic, and torps + supporting doffs can yield good results.
Your preferences. But, all cannon builds is a viable build.

You said it yourself, it has nice DPS. From that, you can guess that the power consumption isn't an issue.

The only thing that is really going to get affected is your afts, as they fire after your fore. But, the higher DPS on the fore easily makes up for the afts, and then some.

If you're really that concerned about it, you can always divert more power to your weapons and increase your cap. Your damage modifier will still be at 125, but your power drain starts at whatever your cap is at.

For instance, if I switched my power level back to 100, I would have an actual weapon subsystem at 135. Drain starts from this point. If you hit a battery and get 150, all of your fore weapons would be firing at the maximum 125 damage multiplier.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 133
# 33
10-15-2012, 11:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shookyang View Post
Your preferences. But, all cannon builds is a viable build.

You said it yourself, it has nice DPS. From that, you can guess that the power consumption isn't an issue.

The only thing that is really going to get affected is your afts, as they fire after your fore. But, the higher DPS on the fore easily makes up for the afts, and then some.

If you're really that concerned about it, you can always divert more power to your weapons and increase your cap. Your damage modifier will still be at 125, but your power drain starts at whatever your cap is at.

For instance, if I switched my power level back to 100, I would have an actual weapon subsystem at 135. Drain starts from this point. If you hit a battery and get 150, all of your fore weapons would be firing at the maximum 125 damage multiplier.
Well, more my point is that if you *are* running an all-DHC configuration, that third ensign slot is wasted, as others in the thread have stated. If you use torps/beams, you can make that third slot un-useless and still achieve comparable (and in my experience, superior) DPS numbers.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 998
# 34
10-15-2012, 12:26 PM
Tachyokenetic Converter (+22% Turn rate and bunch of bonuses to CritH and S) and Field Generator in the Science console slot and you turn the Fleet Defiant into a poor-mans Bug ship. Same DPS and turn rate, just sub shields and hull.

EDIT, Cannot recommend complete Temporal Warfare set, cause then your taking away from your DPS. If you do add Chroniton Dual Beam Bank, you could turn that ensign into a target subsystem shields and use Chroniton Torps since you get that nice damage boost.
Hi, my name is: Elim Garak, Former Cardassian Oppressor

LTS, here since...when did this game launch again?

Last edited by trhrangerxml; 10-15-2012 at 12:29 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 35
10-15-2012, 12:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shookyang View Post
Menial tasks? Forget that...you can solo cubes in Infected and KA elites. Even more so if you stay below or above the cube, so it can't fire it's heavy torpedo.

In Cure, the probes get taken out pretty quickly too.
Oh absolutely.

I just mean it to say that anything the 3 DHC + 1 Torp Config can do against fodder enemies like BoPs and probes with it's better spike a 4x DHC build can do as well.

On top of that, the all cannon builds come out with overall significantly higher DPS.

This is what my combat logs have shown me, including comparisons to my own ships, the ships of friends and the ships of PUGs.

4x DHCs consistently outperformed 3 DHCs + 1 Torp.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nuclearwessle View Post
My Bortasqu makes a great all-cannon build too... if only Cryptic could see fit to eliminate the clearly erroneous turn rate so the ship could function like other escorts.....
That's not really the same thing as being forced to

A) Use a substandard fore layout with a DBB or Torp.
B) Leave the slot empty.

If the Torp/DBB + 3DHC layouts performed equally as well as 4x DHCs that would be fine. They do not.

If there were other choices once you already have 2x TT that would be fine too. There are not.


Those sacrifices you talk about? I'm not trying to "win the internet" with this.

I fly a JHAS.

I had considered putting the Fleet Defiant on a secondary, and tertiary character but the layout is poor enough that I simply refuse to pay for it.


Quite simply, the Fleet Patrol Escort is the superior ship (able to run the old Patrol Escort or Adv Escort layouts) and 1 Tactical Console is not as large a damage improvement as people think.



There's the paradox, the Defiant gives up Ensign Sci or Ensign Eng survivability tools for what should be greater damage potential.

Instead, an Ensign Tactical actually lowers your overall DPS.


Quote:
Originally Posted by partizan81 View Post
edit: additionally, if you're not using torps, you should be. All cannons are nice DPS but your power levels can be problematic, and torps + supporting doffs can yield good results.
If all cannons consistently come out significantly higher DPS than 3+1 Torp, then your concerns about power levels are effectively irrelevant.


Last edited by ussultimatum; 10-15-2012 at 12:57 PM.
Ensign
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 7
# 36
12-02-2012, 06:44 AM
So you have to make tradeoffs rather than there being one escort that's outright better than everything else? Great.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,455
# 37
12-02-2012, 08:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
Oh absolutely.

I just mean it to say that anything the 3 DHC + 1 Torp Config can do against fodder enemies like BoPs and probes with it's better spike a 4x DHC build can do as well.

On top of that, the all cannon builds come out with overall significantly higher DPS.

This is what my combat logs have shown me, including comparisons to my own ships, the ships of friends and the ships of PUGs.

4x DHCs consistently outperformed 3 DHCs + 1 Torp.




That's not really the same thing as being forced to

A) Use a substandard fore layout with a DBB or Torp.
B) Leave the slot empty.

If the Torp/DBB + 3DHC layouts performed equally as well as 4x DHCs that would be fine. They do not.

If there were other choices once you already have 2x TT that would be fine too. There are not.


Those sacrifices you talk about? I'm not trying to "win the internet" with this.

I fly a JHAS.

I had considered putting the Fleet Defiant on a secondary, and tertiary character but the layout is poor enough that I simply refuse to pay for it.


Quite simply, the Fleet Patrol Escort is the superior ship (able to run the old Patrol Escort or Adv Escort layouts) and 1 Tactical Console is not as large a damage improvement as people think.



There's the paradox, the Defiant gives up Ensign Sci or Ensign Eng survivability tools for what should be greater damage potential.

Instead, an Ensign Tactical actually lowers your overall DPS.




If all cannons consistently come out significantly higher DPS than 3+1 Torp, then your concerns about power levels are effectively irrelevant.
Rather than dropping a DHC have you tried mounting a rear beam array/mine/torp?

The defiant is a fairly nimble boat and w/the critH repairs coming from rep system, it may be better to drop a rear turret for a Beam Array and BO or TSSx or aTric/Cront projectile.

It would take a different piloting style, but may well be more effective in the end.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 891
# 38
12-02-2012, 08:50 AM
Considering how easy Fleet Defiants are to aquire, it seems like a very reasonable and necessary trade-off for that ship. It would put it on par, if not ahead of (with the cloak), the Jem'hadar attack ship. We all know the bug is already OP, but at least its a lockbox ship. If that was a Ens Eng slot, no Fed would have reason to use any other escort.

Last edited by xantris; 12-02-2012 at 08:55 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 891
# 39
12-02-2012, 08:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by p2wsucks View Post
Rather than dropping a DHC have you tried mounting a rear beam array/mine/torp?

The defiant is a fairly nimble boat and w/the critH repairs coming from rep system, it may be better to drop a rear turret for a Beam Array and BO or TSSx or aTric/Cront projectile.

It would take a different piloting style, but may well be more effective in the end.
Dispersal mine patterns start at the LT level. So adding a mine launcher is useless. You need to either use a Beam or a Torpedo to get usage out of the 3rd tac ensign
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 891
# 40
12-02-2012, 08:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkenzedd View Post
Having a uni ensign slot would turn this around in an instant, especially as its a T3 shipyard ship!
Yeah, it would make it a ridiculously OP ship for a tier 3 shipyard. You are basically wanting ot turn it into the equal of a Jem'hadar bug, that's unacceptable for the ease of acquiring that ship. Hell the Klingon's don't even have a tier 5 raptor/destroyer that's anywhere near as powerful as the Fleet Tac Escort, Tac Ens slot be damned.

The Fleet MVAE and the HEC both use the same layout for tac officers, and for good reason. If you change any of those Tac Ensigns to a Uni or Eng, 3 ships that are very powerful already become absolute monsters.

Last edited by xantris; 12-02-2012 at 09:05 AM.
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