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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 311
# 51
12-03-2012, 07:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
It's not that great.

The only thing that Torpedos are currently good for are dealing with Fodder ships.

This tends to drop your average DPS off by quite a bit (using Elite STFs as an example you can go from 6k DPS to 8-10k DPS by running all DHCs/Turrets).


Those same fodder ships can be destroyed with just cannon fire, maybe it takes 1 or 2s more - or maybe it doesn't.

A 4x DHC + 3x Turret build Escort can easily do the menial tasks in Elite STFs like Guard Kang solo or take both sides of KASE probes out.
If you think an Escort with a Torp instead of a DHC can't pull 10k DPS, then you are quite mistaken. I myself did 9,5k damage in ISE, a STF that isn't usually very kind to squishy escorts. And that's with my Retrofit Defiant, not the fleet version and only MK XI blue tac consoles.

Yes, if you want to run an all Cannon build other ships are better. This just doesn't mean, that the Fleet Defiant is all-out bad.

Cannon builds are just too streamlined and dull in my opinion. You just cycle through your abilities again and again without little to no variation. Plain boring.

Sure an all Cannon build may provide more consistent DPS, but it's less fun to play. (in my opinion)
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 52
12-03-2012, 08:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by quiscustodiet View Post
That's where you lose me.
Yes, "third Tac Ensign" is useless; but it's no more and no less useless on the Defiant-F than on the Prometheus-F or Akira-F (or the Qin-F, for that matter!).
It's no less useless, but those ships do at least get something very useful out of the deal - chiefly Ltc Eng and Sci. So while the 3rd Tac Ensign is still an issue, I'm more willing to accept it on those ships.

As far as a fix goes, my ideal fix would be a reorganization of Tactical powers to bring a few powers down 1 tier and allow them to be slotted in the Ensign slot.

I'd also like for BO 1, 2 and 3 to get a balance pass.


BO 1 should (continue to) do less damage than 2 & 3, and 2 should do less than 3 - but they should have a lower weapon power reduction to compensate. (Just roughly shooting a number out for example's sake BO 1 = 30 weapon power drain, BO 2 = 40 Weapon Power drain, BO 3 = 50 weapon power drain).

(I also think Engineering is even in more dire need of this kind of BO power reorganization to make ensign slots more useful).


I just don't think that's ever going to happen unfortunately.



Quote:
Originally Posted by quiscustodiet View Post
And you know very well the third Tac Ensign isn't lowering your DPS. If a DBB or Torpedo lowers your DPS (it does), you leave it empty (well, you put a 5th Efficient Saurian and don't care what skill he has).
So what you're saying is:

* A DBB or Torpedo lowers your DPS.
* Suggested solution is to not slot one and leave a Tac Ensign BOFF slot blank.
> Result is a ship that has one, zero function BOFF slot.


Hence, the creation of this thread - because what you have said above is not a value added solution.


Quote:
Originally Posted by quiscustodiet View Post
Here's how Cryptic sees things:
- Fleet Ships should all be relatively balanced with each other and have their own niches.
That's not what happened.

They took the niche that was the Patrol Escort and the Niche that was the Adv Escort and mashed them together (unfortunately).


Ultimately my lament is that I want to fly Federation ships on my Federation characters and Klingon ships on my Klingon Characters, and I'm a fan of the Defiant in canon Trek.

However at the same time I don't want to get stuck with a crappy BOFF layout and the Defiant has a crappy BOFF layout.

So at that point, I can (and have) just shelled out for Lockbox ships off the exchange that usually let me have the exact or near exact boff layout that I prefer.

Instead of a Defiant, I fly a JHAS on my main Tac.

Instead of the MVAE with it's crappy 3rd ensign, I fly a Mobius on another character.

That's why this thread exists, it's one part griping and one part hoping (however infinitesimally small) that someday maybe this will change (and new Tac powers or a reorganization of Tac powers would satisfy that - it doesn't necessarily need to see all ships getting Universal ensigns).


(FWIW, my KDF Tac gets to actually fly a real Klingon ship - A Fleet Vor'cha. )


Last edited by ussultimatum; 12-03-2012 at 08:51 AM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 197
# 53
12-03-2012, 08:51 AM
Yup, I understand the OP's view

I run the Fleet Defiant (all cannons) and I basically ignore the Ensign Slot.... I dont like that fact but this is my "poor man's version of a bug ship" and I have the cloak when i want to use it. Plus, I am just a big fan of DS9.

So.. I run in with an Alpha strike, run away in a hurry before the agro smacks me....rinse and repeat!

I would luv to have the bug and all it's flexibility, but aint paying those prices for it.

Another ship to consider as an Alternative is the Steamrunner, not cheap either.

Thx
Locutus

Last edited by l0cutus359; 12-03-2012 at 09:19 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,123
# 54
12-03-2012, 09:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by travelingmaster View Post
Precisely. These Feddies are whining that Cryptic didn't make their ship even MORE 'OP' than it is. Seriously, it's got 5 tac consoles, and it turns fairly well for a Federation escort. KDF doesn't have any 5 tac console escorts, and the raptors all turn worse than the Defiant (the BoPs aren't destroyers/escorts). It's the KDF that has room to complain here, not the effing Feddies. They got a ship that literally has the power to shred through the TT1's redistribution, at least when used on BoPs and other escorts/destroyers. That's not enough for 'em, especially when combined with a cloak that gives exactly the same decloak bonuses as the vaunted 'OP' BoP battlecloak?

People trying to 'tank endlessly' in an escort are doing it wrong.
I fly a B'rel Retrofit and the Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit.

However, I will note that, even though my B'rel Retrofit only has 9 consoles, it has the built in Enhanced Battle Cloak, as do all of the other BoPs (regular Battle Cloak, that is).

Their cloaks are not the same. The Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit, if you want the cloak, requires that you purchase the Tactical Escort Retrofit or Dreadnaught. Even then, it's a console that uses up one of your slots. If you choose to use it, you are down to 9 consoles. If you count the Battle Cloak on BoPs as a console that you can't remove, my B'rel Retrofit would have 10 consoles as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by quiscustodiet View Post
Cons: <snip> lolCrew
What does number of crew have anything to do with anything? Repair rate is dictated by percentage of crew. 50% able-bodied crew members has the same repair rate on a ship with 50 crew or 500 crew.

Last edited by shookyang; 12-03-2012 at 10:32 AM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 197
# 55
12-03-2012, 10:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shookyang View Post
I fly a B'rel Retrofit and the Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit.

However, I will note that, even though my B'rel Retrofit only has 9 consoles, it has the built in Enhanced Battle Cloak, as do all of the other BoPs.

Their cloaks are not the same. The Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit, if you want the cloak, requires that you purchase the Tactical Escort Retrofit or Dreadnaught. Even then, it's a console that uses up one of your slots. If you choose to use it, you are down to 9 consoles. If you count the Battle Cloak on BoPs as a console that you can't remove, my B'rel Retrofit would have 10 consoles as well.


What does number of crew have anything to do with anything? Repair rate is dictated by percentage of crew. 50% able-bodied crew members has the same repair rate on a ship with 50 crew or 500 crew.
I wish my Defiant had a built-in cloak....depending on the mission, I take the cloak console out and use an armor console or whatever I need.

but I still use the ship....it creates havoc for tactical cubes or beating on the Queen in Hive Onsaught

thx
Locutus
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,123
# 56
12-03-2012, 10:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by l0cutus359 View Post
I wish my Defiant had a built-in cloak....depending on the mission, I take the cloak console out and use an armor console or whatever I need.

but I still use the ship....it creates havoc for tactical cubes or beating on the Queen in Hive Onsaught

thx
Locutus
I only use my cloak for PvP, most story missions, and STFs.

I swap it out for Subspace Jumper for Fleet and Romulan Marks missions.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,360
# 57
12-03-2012, 10:42 AM
It used to be a built-in ability, and those were good days, but then it was "enhanced" into a console ability.

At the very least, I think they should make it a built-in on the Fleet Defiant, and without nerfing console space.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 346
# 58
12-03-2012, 11:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
It's no less useless, but those ships do at least get something very useful out of the deal - chiefly Ltc Eng and Sci. So while the 3rd Tac Ensign is still an issue, I'm more willing to accept it on those ships.
And the Defiant-F gets better turn rate, Cloak and 5th Tac Console.
Whether you or I like that particular trade-off or not is something to be decided on an individual basis.

Come to think of it, it's not that bad a trade-off when you get over the psychological barrier of "leaving a slot empty".
This thread is actually making me consider switching to the Defiant: a 5th Tac Console+the occasional Cloak bonus+better turn rate... that might be worth sacrificing Polarize Hull for.
Only problem is: that Cloak would compete with the Subspace Jumper for a slot. Hmm.


Quote:
BO 1 should (continue to) do less damage than 2 & 3, and 2 should do less than 3 - but they should have a lower weapon power reduction to compensate. (Just roughly shooting a number out for example's sake BO 1 = 30 weapon power drain, BO 2 = 40 Weapon Power drain, BO 3 = 50 weapon power drain).
Agree, BO shouldn't drain the same energy at all tiers; but that's for another thread.


Quote:
So what you're saying is:

* A DBB or Torpedo lowers your DPS.
* Suggested solution is to not slot one and leave a Tac Ensign BOFF slot blank.
> Result is a ship that has one, zero function BOFF slot.
Not exactly, I'm saying it doesn't lower your DPS because that option is always availlable.
It's not ideal, of course, but it's not that disastrous either.

Quote:
They took the niche that was the Patrol Escort and the Niche that was the Adv Escort and mashed them together (unfortunately).
They did. I see no problem with it, they had to include the Hermes, Defiant-R, Prometheus, Prometheus-R (MVAE) and Akira-R into Fleet Ships and didn't want 2 Prometheuses anymore (if only they gave it a Sci Console instead of Eng, it'd have been a perfect upgrade of both).
Since neither those Ships qualify for a discount anyway, it's no problem, unless you were really attached to the looks of the Prometheus.

Quote:
Ultimately my lament is that I want to fly Federation ships on my Federation characters and Klingon ships on my Klingon Characters, and I'm a fan of the Defiant in canon Trek.

However at the same time I don't want to get stuck with a crappy BOFF layout and the Defiant has a crappy BOFF layout.

So at that point, I can (and have) just shelled out for Lockbox ships off the exchange that usually let me have the exact or near exact boff layout that I prefer.

Instead of a Defiant, I fly a JHAS on my main Tac.

Instead of the MVAE with it's crappy 3rd ensign, I fly a Mobius on another character.
Well, problem is, they decided the lockbox Ships were p2w Ships, basically. If you bring the Defiant-F in line with the JHAS, you render all the other Escorts/Raptors obsolete.
Fleet FED/KDF Ships are basically for those of us that don't have lockbox/Veteran Ships.

This is a completely different gripe, this is "regular Ships aren't as strong as Lockbox ones!"
That gripe, I can get behind; but singling out the Defiant from the regular line-up makes no sense.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 59
12-03-2012, 12:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by quiscustodiet View Post
And the Defiant-F gets better turn rate, Cloak and 5th Tac Console.
Alternatively the Patrol and Advanced Escorts both got Turn rate boosts so the difference is no longer as strong as it was.

The MVAE can use the MV console for even better turn rate, and the HEC will remain to be the HEC with it's Hangar bay and Torp Console.

I accept that the value of different consoles are not equal but that's not really relevant to the thread.

As an owner of a JHAS (5 Tac), MVAE (4 Tac), HEC (4 Tac), Defiant (4 Tac), Mobius (4 Tac), AVE (4 Tac), Patrol Escort (4 Tac), etc. I can tell you that for all the hand wringing about it, the 5th Tac Console is a good but ultimately smaller boost than people make it out to be.


Quote:
Originally Posted by quiscustodiet View Post
Come to think of it, it's not that bad a trade-off when you get over the psychological barrier of "leaving a slot empty".
I can tell you from flying a BoP that it's not totally a psychological issue.



Quote:
Originally Posted by quiscustodiet View Post
Not exactly, I'm saying it doesn't lower your DPS because that option is always availlable.

Yes, leaving the slot empty in and of itself is not a DPS loss. It's usually survivability/utility loss.


Quote:
Originally Posted by quiscustodiet View Post
Since neither those Ships qualify for a discount anyway, it's no problem, unless you were really attached to the looks of the Prometheus.
Actually I was attached to the BOFF layout + Console Layout + MV Module.

As a combination those are no longer an option for the Adv Escort.


Quote:
Originally Posted by quiscustodiet View Post
Well, problem is, they decided the lockbox Ships were p2w Ships, basically. If you bring the Defiant-F in line with the JHAS
As an owner of the JHAS I don't believe that a universal Ensign would not have brought the Defiant in line with the JHAS.

3 Base Turn rate is quite large, it also has a (small) bit of extra hull and a slightly better (IIRC) impulse modifier.

Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 891
# 60
12-03-2012, 05:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post

As an owner of the JHAS I don't believe that a universal Ensign would not have brought the Defiant in line with the JHAS.

3 Base Turn rate is quite large, it also has a (small) bit of extra hull and a slightly better (IIRC) impulse modifier.
The difference would be pretty negligible. The defiant has a better console layout and can field a better shield tank, it also has the option to equip a cloak.. It makes the Fl Defiant far too powerful for a t3 fleet ship.
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