Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 203
# 1 PvP and P2W
12-02-2012, 06:02 PM
Ok, I've always been under the assumption that STO has some semblence of balance left in it, even after F2P went live, but I recently started playing PvP again after over a year of not playing. One thing I've noticed is that those cashbox ships can't die. Now either this is me, or something really unfair is going on here.

With my two Fed characters I have all mk12 gear and mk12 MACO. One flies a Galaxy-X, and the other flies a Prometheus MVAM. My Klingon has all mk12 gear and a Mk12 Honor Guard set. He flies a Vo'Quv. I can hold my own in Elite STFs, and do a pretty decent amount of damage too. Now I understand that PvP is a totally different animal than PvE, but it doesn't make sense to me that I can hammer a Jem'Hadar ship from the rear with the massive phaser cannon on the Galaxy-X along with all my other weapons, with max power to weapons, and not be able to bring its shields down, and before you say that maybe it's just my build, there were two other ships with me and they weren't doing much good either. This is not making a very good case for STO being balanced.

Now I'm not saying this is always the case here, because I've been in some good matches with your standard ships, and even some C-Store ships, but whenever I enter a match and there's a cashbox ship on the other side, I want to leave. I'm all for a challenge, but you can only get blown up so many times by the same ship before you finally decide that it's not worth the trouble.

This is not an attack against cash box ships or their owners, I'm just trying to either understand what I'm doing wrong, or come to the realization that I should just stick to PvE. If anyone cares to enlighten me with some advice, please do so, but try to keep it civil in here. I'm getting tired of dealing with A-holes on the forums.
SGT Milton Monzon, SGT Alexander Fuller, SGT Michael Bartley, SGT Martin LaMar
Rest in Peace Brothers
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,273
# 2
12-02-2012, 07:59 PM
The JHAS is a pretty nasty ship, I'll give you that. Even in the hands of a 'meh' escort pilot it can still do a lot of damage.

The thing you really need to keep in mind is that it really is quite easy to tank to a certain degree in STO PvP. Heck, I've actually tanked Federation players in my Hegh'ta, which isn't even built for tanking (and I could if I wanted to, but that's boring) For the JHAS, it has two universal boffslots, both Lieutenant. It also has 34k hull, shield modifier of 1.0, and an impulse modifier of .22, and 4 engineering console. A skilled JHAS pilot could easily use those stats to build a very effective tanking setup for an escort-level ship. . .you just have to know how to do it, and know how to time your skill activations.

The ship itself is just a canvass. It can't do what you're talking about unless the player is good. You were probably firing into a Tactical Team 1 + TSS2/EPtS2 defense setup, or into an RSP. It's very unlikely that three ships were firing at a single target and that single target was weathering the assault without using any buffs, not unless you're a lot weaker than you think you are. You also have to think about when you're shooting. Using disabling, immobilizing, and debuffing skills helps a great deal as well.

I recommend checking out the Panda Cubs, a PvP training fleet that's maintained by the Sad Pandas (who are amongst the best of the best when it comes to PvP). They can work with you and give you some instruction as to what you're doing wrong, etc.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 404
# 3
12-03-2012, 03:49 AM
I would also like to add that your kill-target being a Lockbox ship was probably not the decisive factor in the situation you've described.

Provided the escort player had EPTS and TSS running plus ES casted on him, it's only natural that your lance barely had an effect on him. If that was the case, he wouldn't have died even if was in a vanilla patrol escort.

I assume his guard was up. Be aware of buffs, execute your lance attack when the targets guard is down.

Having mk12 gear ist not really that important, but buff awareness is.

Being good in STFs is not necessarily a good criteria for PVP either. NPCs (with the exception of the diamond ship in the new STF) do not buff up.

Visit the Inner Circle YouTube Channel to watch some pew pew PVP action!
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 351
# 4
12-03-2012, 05:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dm19delta View Post

With my two Fed characters I have all mk12 gear and mk12 MACO. One flies a Galaxy-X, and the other flies a Prometheus MVAM. My Klingon has all mk12 gear and a Mk12 Honor Guard set. He flies a Vo'Quv. I can hold my own in Elite STFs, and do a pretty decent amount of damage too. Now I understand that PvP is a totally different animal than PvE, but it doesn't make sense to me that I can hammer a Jem'Hadar ship from the rear with the massive phaser cannon on the Galaxy-X along with all my other weapons, with max power to weapons, and not be able to bring its shields down, and before you say that maybe it's just my build, there were two other ships with me and they weren't doing much good either. This is not making a very good case for STO being balanced.
If you have mk12 or mk11 gear does not really make that much of a difference. More interesting would be what mods you have on your weapons, what consoles do you use, and what weapon types do you use.
Also, sadly the Gakaxy-X is not really a good ship. You would probably do better in a simple sovereign. That said fed cruisers on general are not that good at dealing dmg.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dm19delta View Post

This is not an attack against cash box ships or their owners, I'm just trying to either understand what I'm doing wrong, or come to the realization that I should just stick to PvE. If anyone cares to enlighten me with some advice, please do so, but try to keep it civil in here. I'm getting tired of dealing with A-holes on the forums.
I would be happy to help and I assume many others as well. You could post your build here and let us take a look at it. Some things that work in STFs are not really working in pvp.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 203
# 5
12-03-2012, 08:02 PM
Ok, I have two Fed characters. The Feds are the ones I seem to have the most trouble with, so I'll post their ship layouts here.

1. Tactical officer: flies a Galaxy-X

All of these are MK12 very rare from the old STF store before Season 7 went live

Mk12 MACO set

Mk 12 phaser weapons- no cannons, all beam and dual beam phasers
Mk 12 quantum torpedoes

Consoles- Tactical- 2 mk11 rare phaser relay consoles, 1 mk11 rare quantum zero point console

Weapons powers- Emergency power to weapons x2, attack pattern alpha, phaser lance, heavy graviton beam, tactical initiative, fire on my mark, go down fighting, torpedo high yield, beam overload

heal/buff powers- emergency power to shields, reverse shield polarity, engineering team, hazard emmitters, science team, tactical team

other powers- subspace jump (from subspace jump console), eject warp plasma x2, evasive maneuvers, fleet support

devices- satellite turret, red matter capacitor


2. Science Officer- Prometheus Multi-vector advanced escort

Mk12 MACO set

again, these are all mk12 very rare from the old STF store

Mk12 anti-proton dual and dual heavy cannons in front and turrets in rear
Mk12 quantum torpedo launcher in front
Mk12 tricobalt mine launcher in rear

Consoles- weapons- mk11 rare antiproton mag regulator x3, mk11 rare quantum zero point chamber

Weapons powers- torpedo spread, torpedo high yield x2, cannon rapid fire, cannon spread fire, emergency power to weapons, heavy graviton beam

heal/buff powers- science team, engineering team, hazard emitters, emergency power to shields

other powers- viral matrix, gravity well, subspace jump, evasive maneuvers, fleet support, photonic fleet

devices- red matter capacitor, phase generator (from the devidian mission)

I think I might be missing a power or two, but this covers the biggest part of it.

I'll be honest, these builds are what I've set up to run STFs specifically, they work pretty well for other PVE, but fighting PvP I don't do so well. I can do a pretty good job as long as a lockbox ship isn't in the fight, but once a lockbox ship shows up, I'm through. I'm open to suggestions here.
SGT Milton Monzon, SGT Alexander Fuller, SGT Michael Bartley, SGT Martin LaMar
Rest in Peace Brothers
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 404
# 6
12-03-2012, 11:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dm19delta View Post
I'll be honest, these builds are what I've set up to run STFs specifically, they work pretty well for other PVE, but fighting PvP I don't do so well. I can do a pretty good job as long as a lockbox ship isn't in the fight, but once a lockbox ship shows up, I'm through. I'm open to suggestions here.
Again, your oppponents flying lock box ships have nothing to do with it. Your bridge officer setups for both of your ships are simply not that great for PVP I'm afraid.

Here are some better setups for your ships:

Vanilla Cruiser


Vanilla Escort

These builds are nothing special, just run-of-the-mill PVP builds. Good for starting a PVP career.

Visit the Inner Circle YouTube Channel to watch some pew pew PVP action!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 203
# 7
12-04-2012, 02:30 AM
Thanks for the link, and the help. I'll take a look at this stuff over the coming days. Maybe PvP isn't so hopeless afterall. Thanks again.
SGT Milton Monzon, SGT Alexander Fuller, SGT Michael Bartley, SGT Martin LaMar
Rest in Peace Brothers
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 351
# 8
12-04-2012, 04:22 AM
Some things for your Galaxy-X:

Weapons:
Sadly the turn rate of this ship is very bad. That makes it hard to use narrow angle weapons. The simplest solution is 8 beam arrays. They have a wide arc and allow for a powerful broadside. With 8 beams you might want to use some way of regaining weapon power, so either run an Aux to bat build or use emergency power to weapons.
Other than beams you could try single cannons. I don't know if your turn rate is enough to pull it off but if you want you could give it a try. 4 cannons front, 4 turrets back. Use CRF, maybe with a doff to reduce the cooldown (or aux to bat).

Here are some ideas:
EPtW1 RSP1 ET3 or Extend2
EPtW1 EPtS2 EPtS3 AtS3

TT1
TT1 FAW2

HE1, TSS2
That would work with 8 beams. You should use keybinds to cycle EPtS and EPtW, basically you will have both up all the time. You can get some information on keybinds and general hints here

An Atb variant:
EPtA1 AtB1 ET3 or Extend2
EPtS1 AtB1 RSP2 DEM3

FAW1
TT1 BO2

HE1, TSS2
For this to work you will need 3 technician doffs of blue quality or higher. They reduce the cooldown of everything when you use AtB. So you just bind AtB to something, like the spacebar and keep smashing it. This will result in lowering your cooldowns to somewhere near the global cooldown. That means there is no longer any reason to bring 2 copies of a skill.
Also AtB will now take care of your weapon power, that means you can switch EPtW to EPtA. That will help your sci heals a bit. A further note: the true expert on AtB builds is drunk (I am referring to his nick and not his current state). So he might provide you with better builds if you want to try this route.


Consoles:
Tac:
Just go all energy weapons of the same typ (like all phaser for example) and stack consoles. It is the simplest and most reliable way to deal dmg.
Sci:
You might want to have one to increase you max shield. Other than that shield emitters are fine, or slot some special consoles. If you decide to use warp plasma you can also go for particle generators. There are also embassy versions of most sci consoles, if you have access to them.
Eng:
Resist consoles (mainly neutronium), are always nice. RCS work well if you need more turnrate, although I am not sure if they help that much on a Gal-X since your base turnrate is very slow. But you might try 1-2. SIF generators are fine if you carry some hull heals. If you decide to use BO you could also try an EPS to regain weapon power faster. Other than that you can also slot special consoles there.

One possible loadout:
Eng: 2xRCS, 2xNeutronium
Sci: Field gen, Borg
Tac: 3x energy
Mind you I haven't tested the RCS on a Gal-X since I do not own one. Also if you want more special consoles just drop something. Although keep the 3x energy, field gen and probably one neutronium.

Other equipment:
I suppose the MACO set is fine, but you could also go for borg deflector, borg engine and MACO shield. The hull heal proc is just amazing.
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