Commander
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 394
# 11
12-04-2012, 06:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sophlogimo View Post
It depends.

Many people here will tell you that EPtS rules everything, always, because of the resistance bonus that it gives your shields. And in most cases, that is true, especially for escorts.

RSP is great even without TT (because of manual redistribution) for healing your shields, but once it wears off, the lack of shield resistances makes the just-healed shields go away pretty quickly. In a cruiser, you want to have both, two copies of EptS and RSP, but in an escort where you will, at most, have three slots for engineering abilities and too few sci abilities to give you extra shield healing, you are better off with EPTS, because your shields will last longer: Even EPTS1 gives 18% bonus damage resistance on top of what your (now boosted) shield energy level gives you. So, 1000 points of incoming damage become less than 820 points that way, to be further diminished by native shield resistances and shield energy level.

And you can have two copies of EPtS which basically keeps that up all the time, whereas RSP can be up for something like 10-15 seconds, and then be on cooldown for 45 seconds... in a game where an unprepared-for alpha strike will kill you within 3 seconds.
Ah, I see. This makes sense now. Thanks
Commander
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 394
# 12
12-04-2012, 06:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by snoge00f View Post
Yeah but the thing is that knowing about different ship types can impact your understanding of the game in general. It can help you as an Escort when you're attacking. The more familiar you are with different builds the better you can plan your attack.
This is true. Currently, I'm trying for a 'One Nuke Blasts All' approach, but you may well be onto something here. Perhaps tonight I will go study your links after all...
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,370
# 13
12-04-2012, 06:32 AM
Quote:
In those matches, I did a considerable amount of damage compared to the other players (approx 500k in a 15 kill match and around 750k in a 20 kill match)
Umm, a 20-kill match? I take it that this was a Cap-n-Hold? Also, what damage parser were you using? Different parsers on different settings can give very different damage levels. Given your console setup, you're losing out on something like a 100% damage boost from tactical consoles alone, so these damage figures are decidedly odd.

If you were going by the scorelist at the end, how long did the battles last? Our total damage per match varies significantly depending on how long the match lasted.

Quote:
While the criticisms about my build are appreciated, what I really want here is perspective. I'm getting that I have an unusual build, but rather than just say something like 'Get some new consoles' (and I assume you mean stack damage consoles, resists, and shield strength), tell me, how does your ship perform in PvP? In an average 15-kill match, how much damage do you do? (Yes, I know damage isn't everything, but DPS is my primary purpose as an Escort, so I think it applies over healing here).
We can't really compare notes until we know we're using the same measuring sticks. Bear in mind, up to a certain point, low healing = low damage, as you will end up dying more often, and thus losing out on damage time. So, how often did you die during the match?

Quote:
I didn't think you could use TSS on yourself?
Yes, TSS can definitely be used on yourself.

Quote:
I have picked up ET and ST to try to improve my survivability.
This tends to be a bit difficult, as ET and ST will trigger global cooldown on TT when used. The lack of shield redistribution during the cooldown may thus lead to trouble for you. HE1 and EPtS1 are good replacements, HE1 for hull resist, HoT and clearing hazards, and EPtS1 for the power and res boost.
Commander
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 394
# 14
12-04-2012, 06:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by scurry5 View Post
Umm, a 20-kill match? I take it that this was a Cap-n-Hold? Also, what damage parser were you using? Different parsers on different settings can give very different damage levels. Given your console setup, you're losing out on something like a 100% damage boost from tactical consoles alone, so these damage figures are decidedly odd.

If you were going by the scorelist at the end, how long did the battles last? Our total damage per match varies significantly depending on how long the match lasted.
The matches lasted around 10-15 mins, and I was using the scorecard that is displayed at the end of the match to get my numbers. Oh, and not a Cap/Hold match. Straight deathmatch, or whatever they are called in STO. The ones where you pick a map, the number of kills, and the team to get that many kills first wins.

Edit: When you say 'odd' do you mean odd in a good way (as in higher damage than I should have) or in a bad way (as in I've badly nerfed myself)?

There was one guy from my first match, who came out ever so slightly ahead of me on damage. He was using AP Mk 11s with a full rack of damage consoles. I think he got something like 5k more damage than me over the course of the battle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scurry5 View Post
We can't really compare notes until we know we're using the same measuring sticks. Bear in mind, up to a certain point, low healing = low damage, as you will end up dying more often, and thus losing out on damage time. So, how often did you die during the match?
Ummm, don't remember off the top of my head. I died more in the 15-kill match than the 20-kill though. We lost the 15-kill, and I think I died 6 or 7 times. The 20-kill we won, and I think I died 4 or 5 times. I'll have a look a the screenshots I have at home and find out when I finish work.

Edit: How's about when I finish work, I'll post the links to the scorecards so you guys can see them for yourself?

Quote:
Originally Posted by scurry5 View Post
Yes, TSS can definitely be used on yourself.
This is good to know. I didn't realise that before. It seems a bit silly though.

"Quick, Number One. Transfer shield strength."
"Onto which target Captain?"
"Ourself."
"So, Captain, you want us to transfer strength from our shields to... our shields?"
"Yes, Number One. Make it so."

Quote:
Originally Posted by scurry5 View Post
This tends to be a bit difficult, as ET and ST will trigger global cooldown on TT when used. The lack of shield redistribution during the cooldown may thus lead to trouble for you. HE1 and EPtS1 are good replacements, HE1 for hull resist, HoT and clearing hazards, and EPtS1 for the power and res boost.
The global cooldown is the only problem I have with having 2xTT, 1xET, and 1xST. From the comments about people's builds made earlier in the thread, there are a few options for rearrangig powers to get around this. HE1 is a power I've been looking at for a while now, looking for a way to pick that up instead of one of my others.

Last edited by bortjinx; 12-04-2012 at 06:49 AM.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,210
# 15
12-04-2012, 06:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bortjinx View Post


This is good to know. I didn't realise that before. It seems a bit silly though.

"Quick, Number One. Transfer shield strength."
"Onto which target Captain?"
"Ourself."
"So, Captain, you want us to transfer strength from our shields to... our shields?"
"Yes, Number One. Make it so."
[...]
There is a lot of that in STO's boff abilities. I mean, look at the superpowers of a tactical team: They run around on your ship (or an ally's where you beamed them onto), shooting boarding parties, while rearranging the armor (!) and redistributing your shields. All at the same time.

Must be an interesting sight, seeing those Tactical Teams in action.
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Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 355
# 16
12-04-2012, 06:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bortjinx View Post
Hi guys,

I'm fairly new to PvP, and have only taken part in a couple of matches. In those matches, I did a considerable amount of damage compared to the other players (approx 500k in a 15 kill match and around 750k in a 20 kill match), but I don't have any idea if that is good or not because I've only played against a very small group of people. I think it's good, but for all I know I'm really just a mediocre player who happens to have been playing against some really bad players. No idea, which is why I'm looking for some perspective.

So, part one of my post is asking, in an average 15 kill match, how much damage do you usually come out with?

Second, I'd also like someone who knows about PvP to look over my build and tell me if any improvements can be made. I'm not really looking for console advice - I like my current crazy console setup, more abilities and other gear.

I'm flying the Defiant-R (from way back when you still got free ships without Vet rewards upon hitting VA). My setup looks like this:

Fore: 3x Antiproton Mk12 DHCs (Pre-S7 Borg gear); 1x Mk12 Quantum Torpedo Launcher (Pre-S7 Borg gear)
Aft: 3x Antiproton Mk12 Turrets (again, Pre-S7 Borg gear)
Engine/Deflector/Shield: All Mk 11 Borg

Consoles:
Subspace Jumper,
Assimilated Console,
Impulse Capacitance Cell,
Cloak,
Isometric Charge,
Point Defense System,
Automated Defense Turret,
Graviton Pulse (Beam?),
Theta Radiation Field.

Skills:
Tactical:
TT1&2, T:HY2, T:Sp3, C:RF3, C:SV2, AP1, AP:B1.
Engineering:
ET1, RSP1
Science:
ST1, PH1

Note, the numbers on the skills may not be entrely correct, but I'm writing this at work, and trying to do it from memory.

Thanks for any input guys
Ok first how much dmg does an average escort do in 15 kill arena? I would say there is no good answer because it depends. If your enemies don't really use any healing and just die instantly you can't do much dmg. If it's a long game your dmg can be pretty high. In the end you should run a combat log parser if you are truly interested in a meaningful number.

Ok a few tipps from me:
First Boffs:
Tac: Beta might be a bad choice for pvp. The problem is, it is cleared by tac team and everyone has tac team. If you find players that do not at least have one copy of tac team you could probably kill them without any buffs anyway. If you time ir right and fight an enemy with only one TT it might still be useful, or combined with a subnuc but generally I would go with delta or omega.
You could try something like:
TSP1
TT1 Delta1 THY3
TT1 CSV1 Omega1 CRF3

Eng:
You are right, most people will recommend you EPtS. With 2 copies you can keep it running permanently. That gives you some resist, and also shield power which gives you shield resist too. RSP is an emergency button that can save you after a subnuc, but it will help for a short time only. If you don't have any other resists you are going to die. That RSP gives you are a few sec but without EPtS you will watch your respawn button most of time against a skilled opponent.
Now the problem is you only have 2 eng slots. So either take EPtS1 and 2 or get yourself a doff for the recharge reduction. In that case you could run EPtS1 and RSP1. I am not sure how high the proc chance on the doff was, you might have to look how many you need in what quality to make this work.

Sci:
ST1 might be nice against some debuffs but it shares a CD with TT. And you already have two copies of TT. TSS on the other hand can be used on yourself and an ally. It also provides healing and resistance.

Gear:
Your engine and deflector are fine but i would change the shield. The proc is good and the TB as well but the shield is really bad. The cap is pretty low so a good escort mith rip through your shields ald kill you before you realize what is happening. I would go for the MACO shield.

Consoles:
If you truly want to be good at pvp you should consider some changes.
1. You need dmg consoles in your tac slots. They do make a huge difference. Put 4 antiproton consoles in there, your dmg will be laughable otherwise.
2. You might want to consider a field generator. It gives you more shield cap and allows you more time to react against an enemy alpha.
3. Turn rate can be nice but other than in a duel you won't need it. You can consider it though. If you want special consoles take a look at the lobi one. It gives turn rate and crit.
4. Resists. A neutronium can really help to survive if you have problems- It can work without one but consider it if you die too fast.
5. The automated defense turret is this little thing that randomly shoots stuff pretty close to you? And does not really do any dmg? It might be nice against the mine spam but in general I would say it is just a wasted consoles slot.
6. Some special consoles can be buffed with skills. If I am not mistaken Isometric charge is boosted with particle generators. That means if you really want this to be useful you need to invest some skill points and you might want to consider boosting it with part gen consoles.


In the end it is up to you. If you have fun with your build... go ahead. But consider that it is far from optimized and will probably get torn apart against a good player. We all play this game to have fun but I would advice you to experiment a bit, try some other stuff and combine your toys with some normal consoles.
Commander
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 394
# 17
12-04-2012, 06:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sophlogimo View Post
There is a lot of that in STO's boff abilities. I mean, look at the superpowers of a tactical team: They run around on your ship (or an ally's where you beamed them onto), shooting boarding parties, while rearranging the armor (!) and redistributing your shields. All at the same time.

Must be an interesting sight, seeing those Tactical Teams in action.
Hehe, you're quite right there. But let's not forget reconfiguring your ship weapons for an extra bit of damage.

There we go. Now we know how I'm getting unusual results from PvP without damage consoles... It's my Super Tac Teams!!!
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,735
# 18
12-04-2012, 07:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aetam1 View Post
Now the problem is you only have 2 eng slots. So either take EPtS1 and 2 or get yourself a doff for the recharge reduction. In that case you could run EPtS1 and RSP1. I am not sure how high the proc chance on the doff was, you might have to look how many you need in what quality to make this work.

Just keep it simple and run two EPTS. If you want to use RSP use a Patrol Escort or a Jem'Hadar attack ship.


Click here and here if you are interested in learning more about PvP.
Commander
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 394
# 19
12-04-2012, 07:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aetam1 View Post
Ok first how much dmg does an average escort do in 15 kill arena? I would say there is no good answer because it depends. If your enemies don't really use any healing and just die instantly you can't do much dmg. If it's a long game your dmg can be pretty high. In the end you should run a combat log parser if you are truly interested in a meaningful number.
First of all, thanks for the post

I keep meaning to look into installing the combat log parser, but always forget to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aetam1 View Post
Ok a few tipps from me:
First Boffs:
Tac: Beta might be a bad choice for pvp. The problem is, it is cleared by tac team and everyone has tac team. If you find players that do not at least have one copy of tac team you could probably kill them without any buffs anyway. If you time ir right and fight an enemy with only one TT it might still be useful, or combined with a subnuc but generally I would go with delta or omega.
You could try something like:
TSP1
TT1 Delta1 THY3
TT1 CSV1 Omega1 CRF3
The build I have currently is also the one I use for PvE. That is why I have AP:B. Well, that and I didn't know TT removed it. I had already been considering dropping AP: D for AP:O to free up my PH slot, but Imay have to look at replacing AP:B now instead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aetam1 View Post
Eng:
You are right, most people will recommend you EPtS. With 2 copies you can keep it running permanently. That gives you some resist, and also shield power which gives you shield resist too. RSP is an emergency button that can save you after a subnuc, but it will help for a short time only. If you don't have any other resists you are going to die. That RSP gives you are a few sec but without EPtS you will watch your respawn button most of time against a skilled opponent.
Now the problem is you only have 2 eng slots. So either take EPtS1 and 2 or get yourself a doff for the recharge reduction. In that case you could run EPtS1 and RSP1. I am not sure how high the proc chance on the doff was, you might have to look how many you need in what quality to make this work.
I always looked at EPtS and didn't think much of the regen buff it gives, but here everyone is saying it is all but essential for a decent PvE build. Knowing now that it also offers shield resists makes it sound a lot more worthwhile.

Nice explanation on why people prefer it over RSP too. Thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by aetam1 View Post
Sci:
ST1 might be nice against some debuffs but it shares a CD with TT. And you already have two copies of TT. TSS on the other hand can be used on yourself and an ally. It also provides healing and resistance.
Knowing TSS works on myself as well as others makes it look infinitely better than ST, simply because of the global cooldown on my transporter room. This is one change I am certainly making.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aetam1 View Post
Gear:
Your engine and deflector are fine but i would change the shield. The proc is good and the TB as well but the shield is really bad. The cap is pretty low so a good escort mith rip through your shields ald kill you before you realize what is happening. I would go for the MACO shield.
I have the MACO Mk10 shield which I used to use with the other pieces of the Borg set, but when S7 started, I wanted to see if they had made using the complete Borg set worthwhile. I'm guessing the answer to that is still 'No'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aetam1 View Post
Consoles:
If you truly want to be good at pvp you should consider some changes.
1. You need dmg consoles in your tac slots. They do make a huge difference. Put 4 antiproton consoles in there, your dmg will be laughable otherwise.
2. You might want to consider a field generator. It gives you more shield cap and allows you more time to react against an enemy alpha.
3. Turn rate can be nice but other than in a duel you won't need it. You can consider it though. If you want special consoles take a look at the lobi one. It gives turn rate and crit.
4. Resists. A neutronium can really help to survive if you have problems- It can work without one but consider it if you die too fast.
5. The automated defense turret is this little thing that randomly shoots stuff pretty close to you? And does not really do any dmg? It might be nice against the mine spam but in general I would say it is just a wasted consoles slot.
6. Some special consoles can be buffed with skills. If I am not mistaken Isometric charge is boosted with particle generators. That means if you really want this to be useful you need to invest some skill points and you might want to consider boosting it with part gen consoles.
Thanks for the advice here. A lot better than simply 'Jesus, do something about your consoles', lol.

The ADT was the deluxe edition console. I find it works pretty well at picking off incoming heavy plasma torps and the like. That is why I still have it on my ship.

Some of my other consoles are pretty new - picked them up from the Exchange - so I've only really got them fitted to try them out currently. I used to also have the Grappler fitted to my ship (from the NX ship in the C-Store), but swapped that out for the Subspace Jumper.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aetam1 View Post
In the end it is up to you. If you have fun with your build... go ahead. But consider that it is far from optimized and will probably get torn apart against a good player. We all play this game to have fun but I would advice you to experiment a bit, try some other stuff and combine your toys with some normal consoles.
This is why I am here. My current build is great fun, but in the few PvP matches I have played, I've been coming out with some very respectable damage compared to the other people in the match. Maybe not quite as much survivability as I'd like, lol, but lots of damage. Only really having PvP'ed a few times against a very small selection of players, I have no idea how effective my build actually is. As you said, for a more accurate idea of how I am doing, I should really install the combat log parser.

You guys have already offered me a great deal of advice for changing some BOff abilities round, so thanks. I'll come back to this thread later when I'm at home and have the scorecard screenshot links.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,370
# 20
12-04-2012, 07:29 AM
Quote:
Edit: When you say 'odd' do you mean odd in a good way (as in higher damage than I should have) or in a bad way (as in I've badly nerfed myself)?
Yeah, it seems like it's pretty high, if we're going by the standard 15-minute match. I got a little confused, as I've only seen Arenas go up to 15 kills. I'd sure like to see those scorecards!

Quote:
"Quick, Number One. Transfer shield strength."
"Onto which target Captain?"
"Ourself."
"So, Captain, you want us to transfer strength from our shields to... our shields?"
"Yes, Number One. Make it so."
In-game, the explanation is that they're transferring power from the deflector fields to shields. Yeah, they're apparently two different things. IIRC, the deflector field is what stops stuff punching holes through your hull at significant fractions of c/warp speed, while shields protect you from weapons fire. Screwy, I know.
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