Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,903
# 111
12-05-2012, 03:34 AM
Quote:
changes in timeline are Already negative
they must logically become more so
this is completely unlogical...one negative event does not in the slightest mean ALL following events revolving around it must be negative aswell.
A murderer dies in a car accident, he won't be able to murder anyone...a negative event had a positive follow event and so on.
The person he was about to murder invents a new form of "green" fuel later on...and so on and so on.

your statement: completely unlogical.
but then again...most of your comments lack basic logic.
Go pro or go home
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,593
# 112
12-05-2012, 04:02 AM
The Green fuel has a side effect causing deforestation of north america and most of europe
millions die in resulting riots

people for centuries say "if only someone had killed him before he could"

or the murderer doesn't kill someone who was due to become the next pol pot

Time is not something you mess with
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,425
# 113
12-05-2012, 04:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
Patrick is British (Scottish I believe if you go far enough back)
Piccard is half and half (French and British)
Picard is 100% French. French people have British accents in Star Trek TNG.

Quote:
any change changes everything after it (second law of time)
There is no agreed upon set of rules there. Not in science and not in fiction.

Destiny is a force which renders stray impact from time travel largely irrelevant in Star Trek. By and large, history is unaffected by time travel in Star Trek and small changes have no consequences. There is no butterfly effect. Unlike the Bradbury story, stepping on a butterfly changes nothing.

You do NOT and should NOT obsess over details, the way most writers approach time travel.



Quote:
assuming he even survived the holocaust of the cadets
You're treating this like a real world. DON'T. Never try to map out what is plausible in your fiction, please. What happens if what the writers want to happen. Tuvok (who was born off world on a Vulcan colony, years after the event of the movie) will be born if the writers will it. There doesn't ever need to be any more logic than that.

In the Mirror Universe, Vulcan was enslaved. And yet Spock was born. The entire Enterprise crew was born. On schedule. And Tuvok was born as well.

The writers' will is all that matters on this kind of thing. If they want every TNG character to be born, all they have to do is write it happening. If they want none of them to be born, all they have to do is write it not happening. And it doesn't matter that much anyway because there are other universes like the Prime Universe where the TNG crew exists. So what's wrong with wiping out Vulcan or Picard's ancestor or Worf's ancestor in one timeline?

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less people exist in his timeline
especially as an entire generation of starfleet cadets died on mass
And if they conveniently didn't include any ancestors of TNG characters? So what.

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but if you take out the source the river dries up
And if the writers want, maybe Starfleet works with Spock Prime to identify and clone everyone who died to keep the timeline on track.

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There will be no locutus
Locutus doesn't even have to be Picard, not that Picard is in danger. And they could always have an alternate Picard turn up, join Starfleet, and become Locutus. What happens is whatever the writers tell us happens.

Quote:
changes in timeline are Already negative
they must logically become more so
Causality should not be for the audience to determine. What happens, again, is whatever the writers say happens.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,425
# 114
12-05-2012, 04:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sollvax View Post
Time is not something you mess with
Do you have a reason for this aside from reading a lot of science fiction that pushes this idea?

Because, really, what would be wrong with the opposite, the idea that time always turns out BETTER if good people mess with it?

That's how it works in Back to the Future, really.

Marty's parents wind up happier because Marty altered history. So does Doc Brown.

Implying time travel is wrong and must lead to bad things is a morality call and people don't have to share your morality.
Commander
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 394
# 115
12-05-2012, 04:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by markhawkman View Post
I suppose there are some things that the Federation carefully manages their supply of, such as Dilithium, but they have large supplies of many other resources.
Ah, so the JJTrek Federation is ran by PWE too then?
Republic Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 985
# 116
12-05-2012, 05:13 AM
Everyone mentions Gary Mitchell and Garth of Izar but, has anyone ever thought of Charlie X?
If you believe the sky is the limit, you are aiming too low. We must reach beyond the stars - Ambassador Otungku
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,425
# 117
12-05-2012, 05:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by scififan78 View Post
Everyone mentions Gary Mitchell and Garth of Izar but, has anyone ever thought of Charlie X?
Here's the deal:

The tie-in comic set in the J.J.-verse was said to be a prequel. Gary Mitchell was in it along with the Galileo 6. Gary Mitchell died.

So if it is Mitchell, it's Mitchell risen from the dead, making the movie a sequel to a J.J.-verse version of "Where No Man Has Gone Before" rather than a remake of it.

But my gut says this is a new guy, probably Section 31, who managed to replicate and further enhance what happened to Charlie X and Gary Mitchell and that both will be referenced as people who Starfleet studied and who S31 used as a template for a new godlike kind of human super-weapon.

And that this will be a new story but maybe with nods to Gary Mitchell, Charlie X, Trelane, Apollo, and even a Q, perhaps all of whom have been subjected to Section 31 analysis and/or autopsies. Maybe Khan as well and maybe the alien from Star Trek V.

Just playing a hunch but I think we'll see a morgue full of alien godlike figures who Section 31 has been dissecting and studying.

Orci and Kurtzman do a LOT of research (for example, the admirals seen in ST 2009 were all established admirals) but they will shove that research into places where you'd miss it if you blinked, practically. And I foresee a moment here where we'll see shoutouts to all the enhanced humans and alien gods from Trek. But that's it. It will all be background for a new guy, who's engineered based on them. It will be a line of dialogue, Trelane's shirt on a skeleton, a dead body in a coffin marked "Subject: Q," that kind of thing.

In fact, I can already foresee a fan chat where an upset fan asks them, "Why did you kill Q?" And Orci will shoot back something like, "We killed *A* Q. We never said which one."
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,593
# 118
12-05-2012, 06:13 AM
Quote:
Picard is 100% French. French people have British accents in Star Trek TNG.
No they don't (see piccards Brother for an example) also french people do not drink TEA they drink battery acid (decafinated coffee)

Quote:
Quote:
any change changes everything after it (second law of time)

There is no agreed upon set of rules there. Not in science and not in fiction.
there are a whole slew of laws of time
They are pretty much universal

Quote:
Destiny is a force which renders stray impact from time travel largely irrelevant in Star Trek. By and large, history is unaffected by time travel in Star Trek and small changes have no consequences. There is no butterfly effect. Unlike the Bradbury story, stepping on a butterfly changes nothing.
sadly not true

Quote:
You do NOT and should NOT obsess over details, the way most writers approach time travel.

There is proof that messing with time can cause chaos
See Guardian of forever for example


Quote:
Quote:
assuming he even survived the holocaust of the cadets

You're treating this like a real world. DON'T. Never try to map out what is plausible in your fiction, please. What happens if what the writers want to happen. Tuvok (who was born off world on a Vulcan colony, years after the event of the movie) will be born if the writers will it. There doesn't ever need to be any more logic than that.
And live his life as a breeding member of society
there is no logic in dying races taking risks


Quote:
In the Mirror Universe, Vulcan was enslaved. And yet Spock was born. The entire Enterprise crew was born. On schedule. And Tuvok was born as well.
Enslaved is not the same as destroyed
10,000 vulcans is a barely viable population
it will be centuries before a vulcan life becomes expendable

Quote:
The writers' will is all that matters on this kind of thing. If they want every TNG character to be born, all they have to do is write it happening. If they want none of them to be born, all they have to do is write it not happening. And it doesn't matter that much anyway because there are other universes like the Prime Universe where the TNG crew exists. So what's wrong with wiping out Vulcan or Picard's ancestor or Worf's ancestor in one timeline?
because its fatal to the franchise


Quote:
Quote:
less people exist in his timeline
especially as an entire generation of starfleet cadets died on mass

And if they conveniently didn't include any ancestors of TNG characters? So what.
But it DOES
for example there is now no possible Wesley (some people may be pleased) because his family have been in the fleet for generations

Quote:
Quote:
but if you take out the source the river dries up

And if the writers want, maybe Starfleet works with Spock Prime to identify and clone everyone who died to keep the timeline on track.
and the clones then eat everyone?
(Cloning produces damaged copies)


Quote:
Quote:
There will be no locutus

Locutus doesn't even have to be Picard, not that Picard is in danger. And they could always have an alternate Picard turn up, join Starfleet, and become Locutus. What happens is whatever the writers tell us happens.
What writers ?
JJ doesn't allow Writers
only special effects people



Quote:
Quote:
changes in timeline are Already negative
they must logically become more so

Causality should not be for the audience to determine. What happens, again, is whatever the writers say happens.
Writers are not God


Quote:
Do you have a reason for this aside from reading a lot of science fiction that pushes this idea?
I have lived a long life and realise that the cosmos is basically evil/negative and that all changes make it worse

Quote:
Because, really, what would be wrong with the opposite, the idea that time always turns out BETTER if good people mess with it?
Good always loses because Good thinks its ment to win
actually "good" people tend to do most harm
Example Mc Coy saves Edith and billions die
This is not quantum leap
you do not mess with time
Quote:
That's how it works in Back to the Future, really.
ah you mean where peoples lives are ruined so a feckless kid can live a better life?

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Marty's parents wind up happier because Marty altered history. So does Doc Brown.
And other people Don't
theres always a loser


Quote:
Implying time travel is wrong and must lead to bad things is a morality call and people don't have to share your morality
no they don't

But ok an example
Suppose I go back in time right now (in my Wells time ship)
And slap a Tri-cobalt torpedo into the home world of Species 1 (ancestors of the Borg) while they are in the stone age??

Suppose I go back and blow up the manhatten project on earth?

Suppose I go back and Shoot Dead King Xerxes

The outcomes are uncertain

but for definate the borg will never exist (and the undine will conquer the delta quadrant possibly)

world war two will still end (slighty earlier ) but the world will not live in nuclear terror

And of course the entire planet now speaks Greek and lives in democratic city states


OR everyone dies

is it worth the bet?
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,903
# 119
12-05-2012, 06:39 AM
Trollvax at his finest...i'm out of here before i get a brain aneurysm of that compressed BS.
Go pro or go home
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 40
# 120
12-05-2012, 06:48 AM
Just for thought, I would like to point out that it seems people may be overlooking (or I may be incorrect) that one of the largest variables that changes the new universe is that Kirk takes over the Enterprise EARLIER than he was supposed to. If you remember the original series, Spock is supposed to be on the ship with Pike, but Kirk is serving on some other ship during this time, learning to be the leader that he would eventually become. What really changes is that he gets the Enterprise WAY early, which means a lot of the growth that the original crew would have had without him hasn't happened. Also, his experiences on another series of starships gets completely shoved under the rug so that he can have those experiences on the Enterprise now.

So, I would think that a lot of his actions we're going to see in the subsequent films are going to be a of a brash, undisciplined Kirk who has a lot to learn yet.

I'm actually eager to see where they go with this series, and I REALLY hope that they understand there are a lot of Trekkies who WANT a storyline that follows logic and doesn't just throw in action for the sake of action, meanwhile destroying the continuity of the set universe, even if it's developing as we go along.
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