Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 492
# 11
12-05-2012, 05:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by neoakiraii View Post
They had to put s7 up first before they can get data from it, and change things according from there.
Strangely it seemed that the data was supporting the predictions of the Tribble testers (who were ignored).
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 12
12-05-2012, 06:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by neoakiraii View Post
They had to put s7 up first before they can get data from it, and change things according from there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by atomictiki View Post
Strangely it seemed that the data was supporting the predictions of the Tribble testers (who were ignored).
This is the heart of it.

What, I think, Cryptic wants from Tribble is enough players to log on and play this content so they can collect data on it.

That's not how I've ever seen any test server work in any MMO without pretty significant rewards for doing so.

What you usually see are a small handful of dedicated players who are willing to test, and willing to provide feedback with the caveat that they expect their feedback to be listened to and to an extent responded to.


From Cryptic's viewpoint they might feel that small group of players is atypical and no representative of the larger playerbase.

From that group of player's viewpoint, they're investment in terms of playtime and study of the game gives them a fairly good ability to quickly and roughly gauge how something will end up just by eyeballing it.


Going forward, I would say that the best solution might be for the devs to give more creedence to the smaller group by trying to make better use of the feedback they provide even though it's mostly qualitative as opposed to the quantitative data they probably prefer. (And Borticus, ArchonCryptic, and Salami Inferno were active in several of the larger discussions so they deserve credit in this respect - although less came of the feedback than many players hoped for).

In addition to this, I think that in order to get larger quantities of players to deliver the kind of quantitative metrics Cryptic is hoping for would be to grant a pretty significant reward for playing on the test server.


My personal suggestion would be some number of time active on tribble (active meaning actually partaking in whatever new content or system is being tested and not simply logging on) equating to some number of dilithium.

Personally I think that if they could pull this off, that something like 4000 dilithium per hour on your holodeck account would be a good ballpark number.


It might seem like a lot until you consider that players are basically being asked to stop progress on their holodeck characters while they actively invest their freetime to playtest content on test.


I have a wife, a 1 year old baby a full time job that sometimes requires overtime and I have 10 active characters to maintain in this game.

As much as I'd love to playtest content the incentive to dedicate a large chunk of my free time by losing progress on holodeck to test content that I'm going to have to re-grind once it goes live is just not strong enough. A DOFF and a Tribble are insufficient for this purpose.


Last edited by ussultimatum; 12-05-2012 at 06:17 AM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 129
# 13
12-05-2012, 08:06 AM
In my opinion it's the combination which makes it "too much " ,not any one mechanic .When you're in a moderately sized fleet and want to progress your character and at same time contribute to that fleet they made that near impossible The reputation grind by itself wouldn't be so bad if - and only if - they'd have removed dilithium requirement for it ( or for fleet ) . By requiring this for everything - and in substantial quantities - they forced folks to choose between their character's progression or fleet . When I see that tier 1 store stuff already requires heaps of dilithium I can only imagine what it will be like for later tiers .

If you want to contribute fleetmarks and dilithium to your fleet you can forget about progressing the reputation stuff because then 24 hours is just not enough . They should seriously consider removing dilithium requirement for either fleet or reputation completely ( not cut in half or anything like that,remove it ) in order for it to become fun again . They simply overdid it ....
Survivor of Remus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 317
# 14
12-05-2012, 09:34 AM
What it comes down to is whoever's in charge is looking at a spreadsheet of data rather than talking to the players.

They see a list of tables showing what we're doing and they want to adjust the game so that the data sheets start to line up how they think the game should be played.

Of course, when they make that change, all hell breaks loose and the players cause a riot, because nobody bothered to ask us what we thought.

They were told on Tribble that removing the dilithium was a terrible idea (enough that they claimed it was a bug and put it back there), but they stealth-nerfed it in anyways.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 919
# 15
12-05-2012, 09:47 AM
Crash Test Dummies <-- CRYPTIC's playerbase
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,435
# 16
12-05-2012, 09:53 AM
If there are issues with their data, it probably comes down to flaws in how they interpret it.

It wouldn't be in THEIR interests to make things up.

And I do think they have arguments internally about how to interpret it. And I think that gets muddied further by taking in demographics from other games and that data can sometimes be misleading.

And they have data from City of Heroes and Champs. They have employees who worked at other companies like Blizzard, Zynga, EA, and Maxis.

And that can be conflicting.

On one hand, City of Heroes' sub numbers didn't increase due to City of Villains, for example. On the other hand, WoW's population exploded with The Burning Crusade and newer servers often have more Blood Elves alone than Alliance players.

On one hand, none of City of Heroes' unpopular changes cost them more than 5% of their players. On the other hand, Galaxies and TOR both had rapidly plummeting populations.

How you interpret all that kind of data is key.

And they may be doing it wrong. But we don't have the data to compare notes on how we'd do it either.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 255
# 17
12-05-2012, 10:07 AM
They aren't making data up, they know darn well our habits and whatnot. The problem is they already made up their minds on what they want to do, and no amount of feedback is going to change it because their actions are heavily monetary based being F2P and I hate to say it but, rightfully so. That still would be a poor decision to go with, specifically when what testers you do have are seriously against blank. But in Cryptic's mind we're all too busy drooling at our starships to care about what they are doing. We're not all on the test server so this must be true, right? And doesn't have anything to do with the fact that we need to install the game a second time which is a massive hassle.

I like to think the launch of s7 has informed them that we're not THAT nerdy and non caring that they can go and take away a vast amount of dilithium wealth that's been fine and dandy up until now all the sudden, and we'll all say, oh, okay that's alright with us we're behind you 100%

That **** ain't gonna happen when you're trying to charge a ****thousand dilithium for everything and force people to choose what to do with their daily allowance of 8,000 refined dilithium in the hopes that they might be tempted to drop a few bucks or more on zen to speed the process up.


I stand firm on my stance, the STO grind is sub par at best. But there's a lot of it's players that do not hold that view point.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 513
# 18
12-05-2012, 10:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by atomictiki View Post
Strangely it seemed that the data was supporting the predictions of the Tribble testers (who were ignored).
It has been said numerous times that only a few hundred people actually go on Tribble and most of them just idle the one hour so they can get their free Tribble testing reward. I was only able to play two PVE queued missions on Tribble because after the first day or so of Tribble testing weekend, the population was GONE.

As far as the voices of Tribble testers being ignored, they could raise prices of everything by 1 dilithium and there would be mass outrage on the forums... There are even people complaining about the free Breen ship... yea complaining... so they don't care what anyone says on the forums...

So... Barely anyone goes on Tribble and you can't even count on the data to be reliable. People copy characters over and over and over and it gets the economy out of whack. I have 500million EC in both account banks on tribble and redshirt, along with about 8 unopened jem hadar boxes... 200 unopened doff packs, 100 rare powered artifacts... all from copying characters. This is why during F2P beta there was a set of structured rewards and you had to roll a char from scratch for the first few weeks.

There was already a thread about Tribble testing and how nobody tested and what not (trying to assign blame) and most of the yuppies in that thread complained about hard drive space and how they are not testing a game for free.... blah blah blah so you all need to quit crying. /thread
1hr of work @NYS Min Wage 7.25 = 725 Zen
725 x 102 (or current exchange rate) DL = 73950 DL <- can you earn that per hour in game?

Join Date: Sep 2009 - I want my changeling lava lamp!

Last edited by phantomeight; 12-05-2012 at 10:23 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,020
# 19
12-05-2012, 10:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by phantomeight View Post
So... Barely anyone goes on tribble and you can't even count one the data to be reliable.
Generally I'd agree with with you but Season 7 (as pushed live) was so brutal on the Dilithium sinks and the cutting back of Dilithium rewards that simple common sense should have told Cryptic it was a huge mistake.

All of the concerns raised on Tribble were magnified a thousand times over once S7 went live - and if I were in Stahl's position I'd be damn sure I thought long and hard about Tribble feedback for Season 8 before pushing it to Holodeck.

Honestly, I don't know what to make of the 'fixes' they've implemented since then - they feel like a poorly-planned 'knee-jerk' reaction - in some ways they've overcompensated dramatically (the Dilithium rewards for reputation projects were completely unnecessary) - in other ways they've done nothing whatsoever to fix the damage Season 7 has done (Doff costs/Fleet Marks).

And then there's strange decisions such as shortening the project timers to 20 hours but leaving the store unlocks/purchases at 40 - opening up the Omega/Rom Marks->Dilithium conversion at Tier 1... honestly, the whole system is just a bizarre mess now - it's better for the players, but it's still a pig's ear of 'game' design.
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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 108
# 20
12-05-2012, 11:06 AM
Ten people or a hundred, they raely, if ever, make adjustments based on what is reported from tribble. However, those faint, few voices are more times than not correct in their "predictions." And the whole rep system testing was a joke really, no body had enough time to get into the higher tiers to "test" even if they were trying to. I say just save whatever you can, shut down tribble and put those server funds into fixing the holodeck servers.
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