Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 801
# 51
12-05-2012, 08:03 AM
wait wait wait where is this year and a half to two years for smaller fleet to reach tier 5 coming from??

It was stated pre season 6 launch that the AVERAGE fleet size was around 20 members, again average not the large "who cares about you, you're just a number to brag about" mega fleets. We were assured that while it would take longer for smaller fleets to progress that the system was being designed for the average sized fleet, and really that is the real issue here. There was a huge amount of concern about this during the tribble testing phase as well.

Mega Fleets can pretty easily keep a constant grind going on the fleet projects, embassy projects and now their own personal rep projects and still hit tier 5 starbase WAY WAY faster than anyone else. Now with the added grind of personal systems people aren't contributing to fleet projects as much, to a mega fleet this doesn't matter, but to a Average or smaller fleet this can be disastrous.

I would be happy as hell to have 20 solid, active, friendly fleetmates who actually give a crap about being social rather than be in a mega fleet where it's nothing about being social it's all about the grind and the bragging rights.

I would give a flying $#*^ if my fleet ever hit tier 5 for the base or anything with the embassy, EXCEPT That's where all the newest updated and upgraded gear and stuff is.

Fleets 50 and under should get a groundbase fleets 51 and over should get the starbase. Scale those based on the different size ranges for the projects and problem solved. if a fleet under 50 reaches max then they get transfered to a starbase will their current progress level but then the high project costs and visa versa.

Why should we average/smaller fleets either have to disband or spend all our ingame time trying to recruit new members who never end up staying because they want the higher tier gear faster.

this isn't about punishing average/smaller fleets or about punishing larger fleets it just about scaling for the gear really.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 331
# 52
12-05-2012, 08:08 AM
I'm not entirely sure how small fleets are dying. Fleets live or die based on the policies and the opportunities presented by the leadership. They live or die because of the passion that the members share for the game, the fleet, and the IP. Mine, is thriving, even growing. If your fleet is dying it's because you're not doing something that your niche market desires. If you figure out what that is, nothing less than a content drought is going to torpedo you, and lets face it, that drought is over.
Vice Admiral Corris Sprint (@sprint01)
Commanding Officer - 26th Fleet [RP]
Star Trek: Praetorian Official Website
Commander
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 394
# 53
12-05-2012, 08:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dariusmajere View Post
I don't Farm my son out LOL. Sadly at 7 tho he has already told me I crowd him to much Love my kid to death, Before him I spent most of my cash on Computer tech or other toys. Now I have actually learned how to save my cash and spend most of it on him now (which is how it should be) But before he started Kindergarten he loved spending time with me, now it's his friends already. Honestly I like it that way because he is not like me sitting infront of the PC all the time or a TV as some parents let happen. The kids he hangs out with are not console dwellers either thankfully so he is actually out running around. But back on topic.
Ah, they grow up so fast, lol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dariusmajere View Post
The Problem is, the systems that you all started to build were Blantly put out infront of you. The problem with them Scalling the requirements to the size of the fleet is then all Fleets are leveling Fairly and Equally. A small Fleet should not be building at the same size as a Large Fleet. Because then The Fleetism (My form for STO racism) is reversed. Now you are punishing Large fleets for Succeeding. This is not fair as well.
My scaling system reflects this. You wouldn't be punishing larger fleets because each member would be contributing less, yet getting better rewards. For example, take 2 fleets, one of 50 players, one of 5. At the moment, the fleet with 5 players is having to contribute 10x the amount of resources per person as the fleet with 50 players. The result is, those 5 players have piles and piles of unusable fleet credits, whereas the 50 players probably have slightly too few fleet credits for what they want (hence the reason for the 'bonus' missions in the fleet project list, specifically designed to help a larger fleet generate fleet credits while giving a worthless boost to your starbase xp).

With a scaling system, I'm not asking for an exact scale or anything. Maybe a 20% scale, so the smaller fleet is still having to contribute more per person (approximately double), yet they are still progressing at a reasonable pace, where the larger fleets would still contribute the same resources as they always have, yet get a greater return on fleet credits. This will still funnel most players into large fleets, which is what Cryptic seem to want, but will still leave smaller fleets as a viable option for those who don't want to join a large fleet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dariusmajere View Post
What Cryptic did was build a system and Place it for everyone to Weigh in on prior to release. They have been making changes to the system based on player feed back. Perfect Example as I have stated was the Fking rediculous needs for the bartender (Honestly The cost for that idiot and what he gives is pure stupidity, I get better goods at the Captains Table). No matter what changes they do to the starbase system it has to remain Fair to the overall base of players. Going by how many players actually get on the forums and complain, this is a few people. If more logged onto the forums and voice there oppinion Cryptic Would listen more. If only a few call unfairness, but the majority stay quiet just like in real life, nothing Gets done quickly. Most of the forums Posters are well aware of who each other is, that is how small of the complaint base that actually goes out there is.

The starbase ALSO is designed to be a LONG TERM goal. Not a short term Goal like the reputation system. That can be finished in 2 maybe 2 1/2 months. I know I am in tier 3 and it's barely been alive. Once the Rep systems are done everybody will be flooding the bases again then people will be complaining (again) that they never have opportunities to donate anything to the Tabs.
A long term goal, yes, but not an unreachable goal. If you have a small fleet of casual friends contributing what the can when they can, it could possibly take a month or two to do a single project (using tier 2 as an example as that is what we are working on currently). At that kind of timescale, suddenly building a starbase takes longer than the Enterprise's original (5-year) mission. Even if a larger fleet is expected to take 2 and a half years, would you really want to deny the smaller fleets access to all of the top notch gear that the larger fleets can now buy for the extra two and a half years it would take them to catch up? Given how much focus a lot of MMO players put on gear advancement, this will probably end up either destroying smaller fleets outright, or driving their players from the game as they can simply no longer compete with their better equipped counterparts from the larger fleets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dariusmajere View Post
Rule #1 of a MMO - The Forum Player base is NEVER happy.
Rule #2 is based off Rule #1: If they are, Give it a day they will find something to complain about.
Rule #3 No matter what you do to improve one players life it will easily piss off 10 others.

This is easily Verifiable (the numbers might not be fully correct.. ) to check out the results of Every Patch, Hell look at Tribble Notes. You will have people Thanking the Dev for one thing AND in the next post People ******** about What is not Fixed yet. The Devs are human, they can only do so much. They have lives Also, either playing the game, OR there Families that You Players complain about not seeing due to the Grind. Well there time is Grinded on Fixing Stuff, they need breaks to. ( I know I am a heretic for thinking like this)
Your 3 rules are spot on. An excellent example for your last paragraph is S7's Dilithium changes, Dev Blog #22 (I think it is, maybe 23 or 21), and the forum goer's reaction to that.

Last edited by bortjinx; 12-05-2012 at 08:29 AM.
Commander
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 394
# 54
12-05-2012, 08:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dariusmajere View Post
* blinks* This is way to mild for it to get shut down. Let's reserve the closing of threads to those with an actual necessity. People are still for the most part discussing situations to improve the ways. Only a few not worth reading have popped up.
Actually Baudl, I agree with Darius here.

This is a good opportunity to examine the fleet size/project resources grind issue from both sides of the argument.

Just, do us all a favour everyone. Keep it civil, and keep it constructive. Just bashing a person and their ideas is no help. Explain why you bash their ideas, and suggest ideas of your own.

So far, mine is the only idea I actually like with regards to starbase projects. It keeps smaller fleets happy, it keeps players in larger fleets happy, maybe even happier as they might be tempted to leave their giant megafleet where they know no-one but are only in it for the gear, and join a smaller fleet and make some friends there.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,360
# 55
12-05-2012, 08:20 AM
"Constructive" is not smugly telling people what they "deserve," and implying they're stupid for not already agreeing with you.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,489
# 56
12-05-2012, 08:24 AM
I can't help noticing that there's a lot of players who belong to giant fleets and think everybody else should do.

I'm in a small fleet. I like being in a small fleet. We have about 10 members who are heavily active and there's some variation of a Skype session almost every night. We just started our Tier 3 fabricator, so I think we're doing awfully well for our size (largely due to one member who I think is a STO-playing cyborg, but anyway). My fleet has almost no KDF presence so I ended up signing on to a mega-fleet there. They were already solidly into tier 4, and projects would have all their materials supplied literally within minutes of becoming available. It was a bit of a culture shock.

My confusion here, is why large fleets "deserve" to be so far ahead? If it's a question of effort, shouldn't individual effort be what matters? I mean, 10 guys really cranking on the starbase should be at the same level as 200 people who are really cranking on their starbase. Yeah, there's more drama in a big fleet, but drama is a BAD thing. We don't have drama. Everything runs smoothly. Shouldn't that mean we deserve to be further ahead because we are a better team??

I don't get it. Cryptic may want players to be in fleets for the social retention value, but I don't see how fleet SIZE figures into that. In the mega-fleet I casually signed up to, I don't know a single player. Nobody cares about me. I got a casual "Welcome" and not one person has spoken to me since then. Where's the social retention? Versus my micro-fleeties who will generally welcome me by name shortly after I log in, actively inquire if I'm available to run team activities, ask for opinions or help, share game stories and links...

My point is that my micro-fleet has vastly more grip on me when it comes to getting me to keep playing, and yet we're expected to run waaaay behind the curve because we haven't got 200 members. It feels like we're being punished. And the reward for our hard grinding? We get to grind MORE so that we can actually buy something from the base store. Yay. We're only into tier 3 and we're already kind of losing enthusiasm for the starbase because it just takes too freaking long.

Cue troll reply by a "You're impatient and a weakling" player who hails from a mega-fleet in 3...2...
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,360
# 57
12-05-2012, 08:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by momaw View Post
If it's a question of effort, shouldn't individual effort be what matters?
Until they start selling subscriptions to fleets instead of individuals, the answer to that is an unequivocal YES.

Quote:
Cue troll reply by a "You're impatient and a weakling" player who hails from a mega-fleet in 3...2...
Indeed.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 352
# 58
12-05-2012, 08:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bortjinx View Post
So far, mine is the only idea I actually like with regards to starbase projects. It keeps smaller fleets happy, it keeps players in larger fleets happy, maybe even happier as they might be tempted to leave their giant megafleet where they know no-one but are only in it for the gear, and join a smaller fleet and make some friends there.
Well sir, Let me be the first to simply state the fact You are bases of liking the idea is biased do to the Fact you Created it Of course It's the best Idea here, It is yours

Personally, I think the Slow changes Cryptic is doing are fine, they are not hammering To much Drastic changes to the system that will Piss off people like me that Started the Fleet system Day One. Gradual changes to the system I can accept, but suddenly Nerfing to the system (I sware if they nerf anything more like they did the bartender mission I might have to goto Cryptics Headquarters and an Angry giant will be knocking on there door. I am Warning you TacoFangs ((I know you have nothing to do with this.. at least I think, but your named after food..)) I will Find you first.. You will be Breakfast.. the rest Will be snacks, lunch and dinner with blood wine to quench my thirst!) I will not tolerate as well.

As for the 2 year Statement, It was in one of DStahls Q&A's. Might of been on the Raptr Q&A can't remember. I know it was Posted to the STO site as well.
Proud Fleet Commander in Garfon's Renegades!
Proud Leader of the Massive Chaos Group
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http://massivechaos.enjin.com/
Commander
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 394
# 59
12-05-2012, 08:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hanover2 View Post
"Constructive" is not smugly telling people what they "deserve," and implying they're stupid for not already agreeing with you.
I said nothing about 'deserve' and implied no-one was stupid. I merely asked people to keep things civil and constructive.
Survivor of Remus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 242
# 60
12-05-2012, 08:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by atomictiki View Post
F large fleets. If I wanted to be a nameless faceless number, I'd be in one already. I like(d) my small fleet, we were comrades in arms and it was fun.
I have a large fleet and I can name off about 100 of our players in it without looking. And there not numbers and I'm sure the leader you would work under would know your name. So don't make blanket statements when you don't know every fleet in the game
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