Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 5,243
# 11
12-05-2012, 10:53 PM
As someone who is kind of an...outsider...so to speak, I've noticed some trends as well. It's true this couldn't be absolutely 'governed' it'd be far too difficult.

Honestly, this is better compared to...larger treaties we have in the real world.

To compare, the biggest single thing is that it's like the Geneva Conventions, 'governing the rules of war' pretty much. By extension, the Hague Conventions as well can apply to this.

It's kind of like the START accord in that it's aimed at least partially at a 'nuclear' reduction, namely in the manner of 'P2W' consoles in this case, to limit their usage in PvP to a degree.



Just a few thoughts I had is all.

Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,052
# 12
12-05-2012, 11:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mimey2 View Post
As someone who is kind of an...outsider...so to speak, I've noticed some trends as well. It's true this couldn't be absolutely 'governed' it'd be far too difficult.

Honestly, this is better compared to...larger treaties we have in the real world.

To compare, the biggest single thing is that it's like the Geneva Conventions, 'governing the rules of war' pretty much. By extension, the Hague Conventions as well can apply to this.

It's kind of like the START accord in that it's aimed at least partially at a 'nuclear' reduction, namely in the manner of 'P2W' consoles in this case, to limit their usage in PvP to a degree.



Just a few thoughts I had is all.
yes mimey. you have the thought there. or the spirit at the very least.

since the game, and the systems and mechanics keep us from policing each other, it would be great, for gaming's sake....to just humble ourselves, in spite of what we could do, to just come to agreement... when q'ing up together, as a team...or 1v1...just to give ourselves this minor limitation.

this will bring the player himself/herself to the fore front of the match. instead of just.....well, using the ample weapons at hand to just utterly void piloting, and play style, or in your example....

if the USA really wanted to win any war, we would just incendiary carpet bomb whoever into oblivion....like.... we did to Japan. i think as human beings we have moved past that. neglecting any humanity to win at all costs.

THIS IS STAR TREK!

we are here because we hold very similar values in the future of humanity.... and well, gaming... and there are star ships!

i have dedicated my professional life to exemplify this thought process. and i just can't see past my own personal experiences, with all involved in this game, that we cannot achieve this. in some, silly, minute manor.

have fun.......kill bad guys
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,615
# 13
12-06-2012, 12:10 AM
Firstly I don't pvp. For no other reason than I'm lazy and it lacks reward for me.

That said this is a good idea and as far as 'enforcment' goes fleets could simply add in their ruled/description that they are or are not compliant. This would give fleet members ample warning as to what kind of behaviour is acceptable. As far as organizing matches you could simply ask the other team if they are or are not compliant and make a decision as to continue or not from there.

Basicaly you could use such an agreement as a standardized rule book that everyone is familiar with.
Actualy reading things pefore posting will make you look smarter than yelling loudly. Reading comprehension is aparently a lost art.

Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abriham Lincoln
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 148
# 14 Wow. thank you.....
12-06-2012, 12:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thishorizon View Post
Throughout the past 2 years, i have been lucky enough to learn from, be influenced, and team with some of the best pilots and ship builders in the game. These pilots and mechanics were also gracious enough to allow me to build a level of credibility amongst the top fleets in the game. its been a great journey. i've gained many friends, made few enemies, and continue to learn and grow in this game, and our community. this has enriched my life to a level that few may understand. most of you just know me as the drunk who has fun and kills bad guys... and probably dies a little too often....and as shimmerless would say "flies like a chicken wailing around with its head cut off."

So, in that spirit, i am going to put my neck out there. you see, i make a living in the business world as a person who grows the environment. through the enrichment and heightened awareness of the people involved in any given set of boundaries, i have been successful in finding a reasonable balance between workloads, employee satisfaction, and productivity that has been both beneficial, and profitable for everyone involved. this skill set does not come easy, and i've dedicated the past 15 years of my life attempting to grasp it. so i find myself in this environment that i love, with people that i value every day. yet, there is no solace in my dedication, due to the divisive nature of that environment, and the differing opinions of its participants.

In the study of our environment, i have come to some fairly solid principals, and accepted many things as just the nature of this environment. they are as follows:

1. Cryptic, try as they might, has yet to strike a value of game play that is accepted by the dedicated PVP community at large.

2. Many of that dedicated community will leave from time to time, may stay on as a permanent resident, or leave all together based on dissatisfaction.

3. All fleets have players interested in battle against other humans, as a team, and as individuals.

4. The opinions of the community vary greatly on what is acceptable, and what is not in team play, and in 1v1.

5. The Environment shows no sign of ceasing to change

6. We all love Star Trek


In conclusion, if there is no reasonable accommodation that can be made among the participants in this community, we will never see it grow to the environment we know it can be, and most of us wish it would be. with all of the recent threads on what fleet will do this and that, i have thought greatly about what accommodations would enrich this game play for all involved. i present to you: The Horizon Accords.


Accord 1: Pay to win in a free game.

We all pay for the game. through subscriptions, with our credit cards, through time. all ships and consoles should be accepted as reasonable in a premade 5v5 or 1v1 match up. How can we find common ground? my suggestions are as follows:

A: With so many "Unique" consoles available, a wide variety of combinations can be struck, but how much is too much? In a 5 man team, 2 "Unique" consoles can be slotted, and give the player enough space to maximize their build through standard consoles. Any more than 2 "Unique" consoles and you start to lose a balance of effectiveness vs. annoyance. Some players like to run them all, some none at all. If we can agree to 2 max per ship, and no more than 2 of the same "Unique" console per team, a balance may present itself.

B: PUGs are not held accountable for what they bring to any match, and therefore can not be held responsable for the composition of the team.

C: Accord "A" applies to 1v1 matches.


Accord 2: The Duty Officer System

A: Due to the nature of the Duty Officer System, self accountability and community accountability poses problems. therefore, Duty officer combinations at this time should not be held accountable by any. the game provides them boundaries at which you are free to do as you wish.

B: Some Duty Officers offer vastly more potential for maximizing and 1 players performance, and that of the team. Fleets and players will have to hold themselves accountable for the reputation they garner for their Doff choices. Reasonable combinations should garner more competition, and over use of some may detract from future competitiveness and available matches for that player or fleet.

C: Future doffs will change game play further, and should be evaluated as such.

Accord 3: Bridge Officer Abilities

A: Every ship has its own "Unique" Boff layout. All powers that can be slotted by that ship are available for game play. Some Boff abilities have hard counters, some have soft counters. it is up to the player / fleet to decide on what they will and will not use. The player / Fleet will garner reputation for consistancy or non consistancy of the Boff abilities they run. Future game play and match options will be the result of that consistancy.

B: There will be no "Broken" or "Overpowered" bridge Officer abilities. all options and combinations are acceptable.

C: Future Ship layouts will change the game further, and should be evaluated as such.


Accord 4: Respect and Sportsmanship

A: General back and forth banter is acceptable, and encouraged. Disagreements lead to conversations, and to the resolution of those disagreements. If no resolution can be found, the players / fleets should cease competitive game play until such a resolution presents itself.

B: The use of derogatory and inflamitory language is heavily discouraged. and sometimes acceptable among players. The use of racial or sexual orientation language should be reserved for those that are familiar with one another, and have found succh language acceptable.

C: Accord 4 does not apply to OPVP chat, but what is said in OPVP will most likely impact the reputation of that Fleet / player, and will endanger future game play and possible competitive opportunities.


And last, i do know this has been tried before, by many. many of you may post that it will never work. please remember these Accords should only apply to agreed match ups between fleets, and those teams that are joining the PVP queues with the intentions of using their teammates to maximize their opportunity to win against a PUG.

If we do not do something soon, we will continue to stagnate, and blame each other and Cryptic for the failures we are faced with at this time. objections and ideas on changes to the Horizon Accords are open to discussion, and welcomed at all times.

have fun kill bad guys

Horizon
Wow thank you for taking the time Captain Horizon. I agree 100%. It is amazing how some very well known players here have mostly shot down your idea with out so much as giving it an effort. Mail me or when you see me in game please feel free to ask for the teamspeak info for Nova Core. We have always been willing to work with any other fleet that wishes to do the same. Perhaps while I have not been around our reputation has been boiled down to rubbish. Fine.

If the community believes that strongly that the setups our 5 man's run are not acceptable then lets talk about exactly what some of the community has seen. Let's address them as a community instead of simply attacking from a purely "we are better than you" holier than though kind of attitude. And the now 5 fleet leaders of Nova Core will voice our concerns and put forth every effort to work in unison with the community to come to some kind of agreement until maybe Cryptic delivers us from this p2w hell we are living in.

Excellent suggestion and thank you again Captain Horizon for putting what appears to be some very detailed and intellectual thought into what may be our best diplomatic solution to absolve some of this very highly heated animosity between fleets.

Let no other player discourage you from what you believe you can achieve in PvP. Though you may walk alone through looming shadows of doubt cast upon you by your enemies. Forge your heart with iron casting its shape out of only your pure will to push forward. You will not be denied eventually.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,395
# 15
12-06-2012, 12:42 AM
From what I can tell, the biggest obstacle is really a social one... people are quick to jump on a stranger, but no one wants to tell their friends that, hey, maybe you should leave that console off. Basically it comes down to the feelings of randoms vs. those of friends, or players you're close to, and most end up making the obvious call.

I don't think it makes them bad people by any means but the problem is there.

vids and guides and stuff

[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,052
# 16
12-06-2012, 04:51 AM
thanks Trip.

always more than happy to swing by your teamspeak. already have the info.

really its all about good gaming. and really what i posted is just drawn out language on approaching our disagreements through moderation and civility.

There seems to be few out there genuinely looking for good competition. yet, this is an mmo with thousands of players, looking for gaming about trek. something just isnt right with that.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 234
# 17
12-06-2012, 03:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thishorizon View Post

really its all about good gaming. and really what i posted is just drawn out language on approaching our disagreements through moderation and civility.
Well put Horizon...8D
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 871
# 18
12-06-2012, 03:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmerless View Post
From what I can tell, the biggest obstacle is really a social one... people are quick to jump on a stranger, but no one wants to tell their friends that, hey, maybe you should leave that console off. Basically it comes down to the feelings of randoms vs. those of friends, or players you're close to, and most end up making the obvious call.

I don't think it makes them bad people by any means but the problem is there.
Whenever I team with friends or fleet-mates from my large KDF fleet I will ask them to remove certain things if I find that they are using things like AMS, tric mines, or siphon drones. I actually find friends, fleet mates, or just random people on my team much more responsive to my requests than if I were to ask the opposing team the same thing. This is pretty much all I can do, and I think if just 1 person on a team did this when they teamed up with people then the matches would be much cleaner and more enjoyable for all. There are probably some other things I should add to my list, but I find these 3 things suck the enjoyment out of a match more than anything else.
----
@DevolvedOne
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 148
# 19 Blood Sucking....
12-06-2012, 06:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skurf View Post
Whenever I team with friends or fleet-mates from my large KDF fleet I will ask them to remove certain things if I find that they are using things like AMS, tric mines, or siphon drones. I actually find friends, fleet mates, or just random people on my team much more responsive to my requests than if I were to ask the opposing team the same thing. This is pretty much all I can do, and I think if just 1 person on a team did this when they teamed up with people then the matches would be much cleaner and more enjoyable for all. There are probably some other things I should add to my list, but I find these 3 things suck the enjoyment out of a match more than anything else.
Kind of like 5-man KDF passive proccing siphon builds that have no direct counter. That will literally "suck" the enjoyment out of a match more than anything I've ever seen when it comes to fighting FvK.

Let no other player discourage you from what you believe you can achieve in PvP. Though you may walk alone through looming shadows of doubt cast upon you by your enemies. Forge your heart with iron casting its shape out of only your pure will to push forward. You will not be denied eventually.
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 363
# 20
12-06-2012, 10:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thishorizon View Post
have fun kill bad guys
Horizon
That's all I read. lol jk.

Yeah, well I remember you sending me a private message appreciating my convictions on making this stuff better after reading the sub nucleonic treaty thread.

I feel the same way about this thread too. And too many people jump the gun and say "nope not gonna happen, don't think its ever gonna happen, know why? it's not gonna happen" etc..

But screw those guys... They fade away in the face of people like you and others like you that want to make this stuff good. Thanks for posting this.
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