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# 11
12-06-2012, 06:50 PM
Yeah, I'm pretty sure I remember Bashirs enhancements all being dexterity and intelligence.

As for Klingons, I'd say they were pretty tough but the culture is all bluster and show.
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# 12
12-06-2012, 07:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by twg042370 View Post
Yeah, I'm pretty sure I remember Bashirs enhancements all being dexterity and intelligence.

As for Klingons, I'd say they were pretty tough but the culture is all bluster and show.
No less bluster and show than human society or any society for that matter.
Richard Hamilton (1975-2014)
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# 13
12-06-2012, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by stofsk View Post
No that's not the line at all. Sisko says that vulcans are faster and stronger than humans, bajorans and ferengi - then points to Worf and Bashir as the only exceptions. The only exceptions to what though? Faster or stronger? Or both? He doesn't specify. He doesn't say klingons are stronger or faster than vulcans, only implying they might be equivalent in one or both of those areas.

But c'mon, take one look at Bashir and another at Worf and tell me they both have equivalent strength.
No, watch the episode. Sisko mentions in the episode that he lost in a wrestling match to that Vulcan, and then Cassidy states "Well, what do you expect? Vulcans have three times the strength of a human" Then when they play baseball and he says that he says Worf is either faster or stronger, he's probably talking about strength, since that's what Klingons boast about

See, you're missing the point, if Worf was tough he wouldn't get beaten up so often, his wrist broken by Troi(under possession, but it was her technique, not strength that broke it), Pwed by Roga Danar, thrown around by a Borg drone, knocked out by the admiral in conspiracy, etc. When he actually fights and gets Pwned then we can say he really isn't that good. The only fights I remember him winning were against other Klingons, in combat, when he killed Duras and Gowron
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# 14
12-06-2012, 07:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by twg042370 View Post
Yeah, I'm pretty sure I remember Bashirs enhancements all being dexterity and intelligence.

As for Klingons, I'd say they were pretty tough but the culture is all bluster and show.
It made me wonder, obviously not all of them can be warriors. We have seen some Klingons who aren't like that Klingon Lawyer, a Klingon biologist. They don't seem to really give science a priority though, like when those Klingons had to abduct Phlox because they didn't have any biologists or geneticists good enough to do it themselves.
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# 15
12-06-2012, 07:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post
No less bluster and show than human society or any society for that matter.
Well, sure. But that's not the topic at hand.
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# 16
12-06-2012, 07:15 PM
Quote:

Just because they're resilient in some ways doesn't mean they evolved to have resilience to rayguns.
How come these supposed "organ backups" don't come into play, if they were shot through the heart, the secondary heart should come online, unless an organ was damaged they didn't have a backup for, or bleeding, etc. I'm guessing they took a lot of abuse and damage evolving from the crustacean form we see in Genesis to what they are now, and thus developed those backups, but what good are they if they don't work when you need them to?
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# 17
12-06-2012, 08:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fedman70 View Post
No, watch the episode. Sisko mentions in the episode that he lost in a wrestling match to that Vulcan, and then Cassidy states "Well, what do you expect? Vulcans have three times the strength of a human" Then when they play baseball and he says that he says Worf is either faster or stronger, he's probably talking about strength, since that's what Klingons boast about
I did watch the episode. I even consulted the script. Sisko doesn't specify that klingons are stronger, at most he implies they may have equivalent strength. Or that they have equivalent speed/reflexes. He wasn't clear.

And yeah Sisko got trounced in a wrestling match, but Sisko has also boxed Jem'hadar and Klingons so I don't think the latter have the same strength as vulcans do.

You have to consider the rest of the show and the rest of the context. Hell, Kira beats up Klingons in 'Way of the Warrior' - they simply cannot be physically stronger than humans.

Quote:
See, you're missing the point, if Worf was tough he wouldn't get beaten up so often, his wrist broken by Troi(under possession, but it was her technique, not strength that broke it), Pwed by Roga Danar, thrown around by a Borg drone, knocked out by the admiral in conspiracy, etc. When he actually fights and gets Pwned then we can say he really isn't that good. The only fights I remember him winning were against other Klingons, in combat, when he killed Duras and Gowron
No it's you who is missing the point I made about confirmation bias. All your examples - all of them - show extenuating circumstances. Troi was under possession by an alien and that may well have boosted her strength (did they establish Worf's wrist was broken? Having watched that scene on youtube it certainly doesn't look broken); Roga Danar was physically augmented by his people, so he likely IS stronger than Worf; Borg drones are stronger than anyone, even Vulcans (Tuvok was man-handled by a drone in 'Scorpion') thanks to their cybernetic implants; the parasitic beings in 'Conspiracy' boosted the bodies they were in. In other words the dice were loaded against Worf in those examples.

Worf's beaten up other klingons but he's also beaten up Jem'hadar, Romulans and other dudes. Jem'hadar are implied to be pretty strong, so go figure.

Quote:
How come these supposed "organ backups" don't come into play, if they were shot through the heart, the secondary heart should come online, unless an organ was damaged they didn't have a backup for, or bleeding, etc. I'm guessing they took a lot of abuse and damage evolving from the crustacean form we see in Genesis to what they are now, and thus developed those backups, but what good are they if they don't work when you need them to?
How come you are missing my point? That klingons did not evolve any resilience to rayguns. Bringing this up is irrelevant - they have organ backups but that's not going to save them from being vaporised by a disruptor, or stunned by a phaser.

On the other hand in 'Ethics' we see that those organ backups saved Worf's life when he otherwise would have died without them.
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# 18
12-07-2012, 05:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by twg042370 View Post
Well, sure. But that's not the topic at hand.
I felt it needed be said since it didn't address the topic at hand and lest this thread turn into a Bash the KDF instead of a discussion wether the KDF is tough thread.
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# 19
12-07-2012, 05:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fedman70 View Post
It made me wonder, obviously not all of them can be warriors. We have seen some Klingons who aren't like that Klingon Lawyer, a Klingon biologist. They don't seem to really give science a priority though, like when those Klingons had to abduct Phlox because they didn't have any biologists or geneticists good enough to do it themselves.
Read the Gorkon series of books by Kieth R. A. Candido to learn a great deal about the Klingon culture both within the warriors ranks, the Actors Guild and farm life on a farming world in the Empire.
Learn that while we differ we are also not that dissimiliar.
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# 20
12-07-2012, 05:32 AM
Bashirs "Gene Genie" situation was an add on later on (he was not originally written as quite as mighty as he later became) but when his body is possessed he uses his enhanced abilities

Put it this way if I were storming DS9 I would terminate him second (after odo)
then incapacitate Kira as the next most dangerous
THEN worf
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