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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,139
# 31
12-08-2012, 10:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by travelingmaster View Post
Don't feel massive enough? Do a 10v10 PvP and see the problem with that.

If it's enemies you want, do the No-win scenario or a Foundry mission with lots of NPC enemies to shoot at.

Also, on the 360 degree maneuverability: Even if the starships in Star Trek didn't appear to obey some principle of gravity, we still wouldn't have that sort of maneuvering in this game. . .and for two good reasons. One, the game engine isn't designed for that. Two, human beings aren't designed for that. Do people have any idea how disorienting 360 degree combat mechanics would be through a 2D screen of limited capabilities?
I think you missed the point of what I said. I was not referring to the number of targets, or maybe I was but not by what you mean, for the most part I was talking about the ambiance of the encounters, there are too many weaker enemies and with the sound effects it makes the encounters feel tiny, little ships with tiny weapons shooting at other little ships, there should be fewer but more powerful enemy targets and sound effects should have a deeper resonance to give the impression of size.
On 360 degree maneuverability the game engine has nothing to do with it, you pitch up or down and you can fly in that direction, the only reason you can't go straight up or roll and invert is because of an arbitrary limit set on that degree of motion for the ships, not because the engine can't support it, Champions Online uses the same engine and has no such limitation on degrees of freedom, the only thing missing are roll controls, disorientation is not a factor, auto-righting is already built into the engine. How humans are designed is a non issue, humans have adapted well to operating aerobatic aircraft and spacecraft in the real world and the limitations of a 2D screen hasn't adversely affected players of fighter sims. That aside 360 flight doesn't bring anything of necessity to the game, 1 or 2000 foot long starships don't need to flit around like fighter jets, in fact it's less realistic if they do, but they could at least remove the limit on pitch angle so that ship can rise or dive without having to waste movement to get at targets above or below them.

All that aside, the real reason the game lacks a Star Trek feel is that Star trek isn't really about combat, it's about people, there is not enough interaction, not enough exploration, not enough puzzles and experiments, Scanning something should open a tricorder mini game that requires you to select parameters of the scan, repairing something should open a puzzle mini game that requires you to move and replace objects, but instead it's all go there, right click and wait, or shoot this, come here and collect reward, rinse and repeat.

Last edited by maxvitor; 12-08-2012 at 10:23 AM.
Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 407
# 32
12-08-2012, 10:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxvitor View Post
All that aside, the real reason the game lacks a Star Trek feel is that Star trek isn't really about combat, it's about people, there is not enough interaction, not enough exploration, not enough puzzles and experiments, it's all go there, shoot this, come here and collect reward, rinse and repeat.
And all the attempts to put it in, had been a failure so far.
Interaction with NPCs get boring quite fast. You would need a single 20hrs Story to make it more interesting, but this is far too much work to implement it in a game like this.
Exploration, as it is designed, too. Go here, collect that, fly there collect that as well.
Puzzles/Experiments: All there is are minigames at the moment, and most of it gets boring after the 2nd run.

After all, it is combat (PvP) which offers the most alternation right now. To get more Star Trek Feeling, the game would have to be more like this one game from this other franchise, around 10 years ago. (This 20hrs+ Story Content Stuff, but it would take half an enternity to implement something like this, which is too long for a game like this, where people cry for new stuff every single week.)
Ensign
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 10
# 33
12-08-2012, 05:39 PM
In the actual Star Trek the ships rarely would do some of the 3D maneuvers you guys are talking about. There's this thing is space that Star Trek was actually very accurate with displaying called Torsional Stress.


The whole thing of Inertial Dampeners were meant to counter the internal effects of torsional stress, but there is not much that would prevent the torsion from ripping your ship in half, and most of the ships in the Star Trek universe are built with pylons and parts going off in every direction.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 96
# 34
12-08-2012, 06:43 PM
I would say the turn rate and speeds of ships now already show their attention to inertial stresses. Though it does raise an interesting idea- can we fly a ship apart? It'd be neat bonus to mobility in emergencies.

But imagine how three dimensions could change fighting mechanics. Shields would have six sides minimum for the dorsal and ventral in addition to fore/aft starboard/port. And thats hard to depict in a two dimensional plane- like from looking at the side of ships or the circular shield indicator in the target viewer.
Not adding dorsal and ventral shields would mean that turning your ship topside would effectively make shield mitigation automatic because you'd be dividing damage between all four simultaniously- and thats not realistically viable.

Also weapons would have to be targeted more conically because you'd have completely independently usable fore, aft, left, right, dorsal, and ventral weapons.
Not doing so would make turning your ship upside down a meaningless cosmetic detail as opposed to a strategic maneuver.
But this could satisfy the broadside cannon wish of many players.

And people so tired of the linearity of the game need to join a role play fleet (call me, I've got one).
There's no way that a game like this is going to be able to open up enough randomized experience and cover enough reaction possibilities to make it character driven.
If thats what's really important to you, role play with similarly minded individuals is the best bet.

Last edited by trahl; 12-08-2012 at 06:51 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 430
# 35
12-08-2012, 09:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
My 2 ECs. Give us FULL 3D combat. Not just semi 3D, but FULL. I want to be able to go full vertical, do barrel rolls, etc. That would be fun XD. Albeit not really trek, but fun nonetheless.
THIS!

Full 360 would be great. I can't recall how many times I've ended up at that odd angle where I can't use my cannons nor can I increase/decrease my climb angle....
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,139
# 36
12-08-2012, 09:30 PM
Shields could stay just the way they are now without complicating things by adding two more sides, the game is not 2 dimensional, it's 3 dimensional and only feels like the former because of a number in a file limiting pitch angles. A ship above you shooting down at you hits on what appears to be a dorsal area but actually reads as damage to one of the existing quadrants depending on where the hit lands, the ship is enclosed in a ovoid sphere that is divided into 4 quadrants, nothing there needs to be changed. Larger ships would not benefit too much because of poor turning, but more maneuverable ships like shuttle, fighters, escorts and bops should have no such limitations. In First Contact there is an excellent scene showing Akiras and Steamrunners doing barrel rolls and immelmanns wheeling around to get a bead on the Borg cube. there is no reason why that kind of maneuverability can't be in this game, the engine will support it.
Commander
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 407
# 37
12-09-2012, 03:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by joestyles View Post
In the actual Star Trek the ships rarely would do some of the 3D maneuvers you guys are talking about. There's this thing is space that Star Trek was actually very accurate with displaying called Torsional Stress.
Small Crafts, the Defiant-Class and BoPs for example performed some of these maneuvers, so you are wrong.



Quote:
Originally Posted by maxvitor View Post
Larger ships would not benefit too much because of poor turning, but more maneuverable ships like shuttle, fighters, escorts and bops should have no such limitations. In First Contact there is an excellent scene showing Akiras and Steamrunners doing barrel rolls and immelmanns wheeling around to get a bead on the Borg cube. there is no reason why that kind of maneuverability can't be in this game, the engine will support it.
Career Officer
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 934
# 38
12-09-2012, 04:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zeratk View Post
Small Crafts, the Defiant-Class and BoPs for example performed some of these maneuvers, so you are wrong.
This just proves the point. Torsional stress gets greater the larger the object is. It's the same reason that fighter jets can do all kinds of fancy maneuvers but bombers basically fly in a straight line. (I suffered through engineering school in RL. We studied this kind of thing.)

Porthos is not amused.
Career Officer
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 934
# 39
12-09-2012, 04:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by trahl View Post
...can we fly a ship apart?...
Fly her apart, then!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0VTyTPJVfs

Porthos is not amused.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,052
# 40
12-09-2012, 04:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mwgacy1 View Post
You can do them in STO too, well 360 flip's in the air at least, not quite flying.

http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/a...6-23-54-13.jpg

Yes, I'm aware that the image has an unfortunate angle but the animation's quite fast and it's hard to get an upside down character shot. I'll try it with trouser's next time.
Yup, but the engine allows both at the same time as well.
And the engine is the same for space and ground so it's possible.
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