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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 245
# 21
12-09-2012, 02:03 PM
The sad thing about the Bortasque is that Cryptic just didn't listen and instead proceeded to put a ship that nobody liked on the c-store for real money.

Very, very few people liked the free Bortas when it was released for the anniversary. It was, as has been said about the Bortasque, a whale. It was generally regarded as a joke. And then they went and wanted to charge people real money for it?

And then wonder why they lost money?
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 47
# 22
12-09-2012, 02:16 PM
Quote:
So, I take it you're a fed player?

The point of my original post, is that it did poorly because it's designed to the wrong kind of spec for KDF play.

Put the same handling specs on a ship with a big round saucer and two (or four) Nacelles with a "U.S.S." prefix, and it would do fine on the targeted market of FEDERATION players.

but the design runs pretty much counter to KDF style play-the only other ship in the Klingon inventory that handles nearly as poorly is the Vo'Quv, which makes up for it with hangar pets.

The reason I used car analogies, is that the problem IS the Detroit problem-specifically the "Detroit in the seventies" problem-if you're a car company, and you ignore your car buying market, putting spoilers on a land-yacht doesn't make it a muscle car, and you're not going to be fooling anyone.

If Cryptic would BUILD a C-store shop for the KDF, following the aesthetic of the ships that people are levelling with, using, favouring and building, it would sell-they sold a crapload of lifetimer subs with the Pegh'u (sp?), and tonnes of lockboxes for the Temporal ships, and you're still more likely to see either of those in PvP, fleetmark missions, or SUCCESSFUL STF runs, than you will the thinly-disguised-whale Bortasque.

Handling and manuever are major points for the KDF faction-the faction whose senior members started in an era where they ONLY had PvP, and whose junior members start their toons with..what?? oh, yeah, the bird of prey-a ship that is nothing BUT handling.

as Klingons level, unlike their fed counterparts, even on cruisers, they have handling and manuever as core elements of their ships, and it shows in the outcomes of PvP matches and STF runs-ships like the Vor'cha-R and Tor'Kaht have nearly-legendary status for their success rates, and the Fed-Threads periodically fill with indignant ******** because KDF cruisers can bring cannons to bear often enough to dust 'superior' Fed vessels...

and then, we have the Bortasque, which is the only cruiser in the KDF arsenal that can be one-on-one owned by what is reputed to be the worst Fed cruiser in the game (The Galaxy-X, aka "Failaxy"...) a ship that sits a tier lower and costs a LOT less to buy.

when you build and offer a good ship, PEOPLE WILL BUY IT-look at how many lockboxes it takes to get a Jem Bugship, or Galor, (the price to get the box opened by SOMEONE still runs into the triple digits thanks to the way random odds work), the number of Temporal Destroyers, Mirror Qins, and "Lifetimer" (1000 day) ships out there, then look at how many of the Bortasque did NOT sell.

A few people bought it, and I think you're the first poster to declare your liking it, makes you part of a minority-within-a-minority (or too proud to admit you wasted that fifty dollars).

the problem comes down to violating the performance asthetic. The Bort's got this awesome map for a bridge-it's bigger than some people's starbases, (and that's JUST THE BRIDGE AREA) but it, frankly, does not perform up to the standard that a Negh'var, Vorcha, Vor'cha R, K'Tinga, Tor'Kaht, etc. perform. The performance just isn't there, the parts are incompatible with any other KDF design, the few advantages are countered by structural disadvantages mostly due to the poor handling and some issues with buggy code.

Kind of like how certain mid-seventies cars had great big engines, no power or handling, sludgy braking and frequent mechanical issues, and detroit sticking spoilers and custom paint on them wasn't enough, so too, the Bortasque just...fails. Word in a community as small as the KDF gets around fast-"This ship is a dog" has crossed all the sectors by the time a player like you whom doesn't dislike a turn rate in single digits has gotten up for breakfast.

If Cryptic WANTED to sell C-store KDF ships, they'd design...good c-store KDF ships. which is to say, ships that are not thinly disguised and nerve-deadened versions of Federation ships.
I wasn't doubting the point of the original post, i was simply saying that while it isn't a typical klingon ship it is not entirely useless if you find a way to use it that makes up for it. Yes it has many downfalls that the typical klingon cruiser doesn't, and it's a shame cryptic didn't take that to heart when designing it. However i chose to buy it and use it despite evryone around me saying "don't get it, it's worthless, go buy a vor'cha or Bird-Of-prey" Every single one of them took back their words when i showed them my finished build.
I used to be a Fed player, but since then i now play 90% on the klingon side and the rest doing STFs on feds with fleet mates who don't have klinks. I once flew a Dreadnought with a full cannon and turret set up, yes the turn rate was a problem sometimes, but i got used to it, I got consoles to counter it and turned it into a warship that was good in PVP. Once i saw the bortasqu' i immediately saw, as everyone else sees, the flaws: the bad turn rate, the crap shields, the bulky design. And after a while of thought i came up with a build to counter the first two of these factors and i got used to the third one. I took a clumsy, slow and fairly weak cruiser who everyone believes is a passive ship and turned it into a Battleship, it has problems that cannot be fixed but i make do and stand by my decision to use it. And no Dreadnought I have faced has ever come close to killing it.
Yes, you may believe that a Fleet Vor'Cha or a Fleet K'Tinga are better Tactical Cruisers and perhaps they are, for almost everyone except me. I freely admit i am a megalomaniac, I chose it as the ship is huge, the cannon can do large amounts of damage if used right, if used wrongly it goes down like a cheap Orion on a Saturday night.
I was only contesting those who believe it has no good points, it breaks the mould and shouldn't be called a Battlecruiser: It is a Battleship. It is not comparable to the Vor'Cha, K'Tinga or Negh'Var, it's a new breed and should be treated as such, with careful thought and a lot of work and respect for its flaws.
And as for the car references, I have little or no knowledge of American cars, for I am not American, I am British.
As for it losing Cryptic money, I have no idea why it would as i seem to see tonnes of them around nowadays in PVE and PVP, and they've probably made that money back ten-fold in sales of lock-boxes anyway. Personally i think it was some of the Orion ships that lost them money as they're rarer to see

Last edited by benj2293; 12-09-2012 at 02:18 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,735
# 23
12-09-2012, 02:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by momaw View Post
Just daydreaming.

Turn rate: 5.5 => 8.0

Hull strength: -10%

All variants: Disruptor Autocannon. Unique front weapon. Effectively a single cannon (180 degrees) with reduced damage falloff, large accuracy bonus (faster than standard muzzle velocity) and a slightly boosted basic rate of fire.

Tactical Bortasqu: Tactical EPS Reroute console. For 15 seconds, all energy is transferred from Engines to Weapons. +50 weapon power, engines disabled. 1 minute 30 seconds cooldown.

Engineering Bortasqu: Augmented Reactive Plating. Passively adds +30 all damage resistance. Also adds 25% to the magnitude of any damage resistance abilities (Brace For Impact, Auxiliary to Structural, Polarize Hull, Attack Pattern Delta, etc) used on your ship.

Science Bortasqu: Subspace Snare is fine, though it could do with a shorter cooldown or a longer period of disabling on the target.

Full set bonuses:
+1.0 turn rate (becomes 9.0, same as Negh'var)
+10 starship energy and projectile weapons skills
+20 starship warp core potential skill
-5% all energy damage to shields


Worth 50$?
maybe. problem being, it's still basically a reskinned Fed cruiser, the problem of turn-rate is LESS at 8 than at 5.5, but it's still a problem. I'd almost say that the real solution, is to design an entirely different ship, more in keeping with the bits that work well on KDF Battlecruiser designs that are known to work well already, and fit the general "Aesthetic" of the KDF.

i.e. maybe enhancing the virtues of the Tor'kaht or designing a "raptor" with science ship abilities (integral subsystem targeting, four or more sci consoles PLUS three tac consoles and three engie consoles...)

the fifty dollar mark's kind of a red herring-it's not a price point that will make back what is put into it with volume. Twenty seems to be about as much as this market can handle, with much *****/whine/moan starting at twenty-five (witness the underwhelming reaction to the Fleet B'rel-R).

a better option might be an improved Koro'tinga based design with a near-escort turn rate, near-science ship shield modifier, ding to the hull hitpoints and the ability to choose between the three classes of captain with specific abilities that are 'dead obvious'-

Science BC: 3 engie, 4 Sci, 3 Tac, Bonus to Sensors and subsystem targeting, console layout of 1 CDR sci, 1 LTC Universal, 1 Tac Lt., 1 LT Eng, 1 ens. Tac (to fit the heavy "combat" mode of the KDF)

Eng BC: 4 Engie, 3 Sci, 3 Tac, Bonus to hull heal/resist, small bonus to Engine power/warp core potential, CDR Engie, LTC Uni, Lt Sci, Lt. Tac, ens. engie

Tac BC: 3 Engie, 3 Sci, 4 Tac, Bonus to weapons. Console layout CDR Tac, LTC Uni, Lt. sci, Lt. Engie, Ens. Tac

Special consoles: reuse the subspace snare (Sci), big-ass-gun (with the long cooldown and tight firing arc) on the Tac, and the augmented reactive plating for the engie.

Because KDF ships are all about the movement and handling, a set bonus that acts like a "Ring of free action" (if you're familiar with tabletop D&D) clearing holds from Warp Plasma for 10-15 seconds would probably work best-and would be relatively unusual.

I figure a turn rate in the 9-11 range, well above Fed cruisers, but still capable of being out-turned by FedScorts and FedSci ships that are properly set up.

It's still a ship I'd be reluctant to use (I'm a BoP driver by preference), but it's more in line with the KDF aesthetic of sacrificing hull thickness for movement.

More to the point, it would probably be a pack of three that would be WORTH fifty dollars to a KDF player raised on a diet of Raptors, Vor'chas, and Negh'vars.
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,735
# 24
12-09-2012, 02:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by benj2293 View Post
I wasn't doubting the point of the original post, i was simply saying that while it isn't a typical klingon ship it is not entirely useless if you find a way to use it that makes up for it. Yes it has many downfalls that the typical klingon cruiser doesn't, and it's a shame cryptic didn't take that to heart when designing it. However i chose to buy it and use it despite evryone around me saying "don't get it, it's worthless, go buy a vor'cha or Bird-Of-prey" Every single one of them took back their words when i showed them my finished build.
I used to be a Fed player, but since then i now play 90% on the klingon side and the rest doing STFs on feds with fleet mates who don't have klinks. I once flew a Dreadnought with a full cannon and turret set up, yes the turn rate was a problem sometimes, but i got used to it, I got consoles to counter it and turned it into a warship that was good in PVP. Once i saw the bortasqu' i immediately saw, as everyone else sees, the flaws: the bad turn rate, the crap shields, the bulky design. And after a while of thought i came up with a build to counter the first two of these factors and i got used to the third one. I took a clumsy, slow and fairly weak cruiser who everyone believes is a passive ship and turned it into a Battleship, it has problems that cannot be fixed but i make do and stand by my decision to use it. And no Dreadnought I have faced has ever come close to killing it.
Yes, you may believe that a Fleet Vor'Cha or a Fleet K'Tinga are better Tactical Cruisers and perhaps they are, for almost everyone except me. I freely admit i am a megalomaniac, I chose it as the ship is huge, the cannon can do large amounts of damage if used right, if used wrongly it goes down like a cheap Orion on a Saturday night.
I was only contesting those who believe it has no good points, it breaks the mould and shouldn't be called a Battlecruiser: It is a Battleship. It is not comparable to the Vor'Cha, K'Tinga or Negh'Var, it's a new breed and should be treated as such, with careful thought and a lot of work and respect for its flaws.
And as for the car references, I have little or no knowledge of American cars, for I am not American, I am British.
As for it losing Cryptic money, I have no idea why it would as i seem to see tonnes of them around nowadays in PVE and PVP, and they've probably made that money back ten-fold in sales of lock-boxes anyway. Personally i think it was some of the Orion ships that lost them money as they're rarer to see
okay...british cars then...

Rover Princess comes to mind with the Bortasque', it's advertised as an Austin DB-9, but it's performance is more in line with the Rover Princess, in a market that's used to BMW M-5's, Ariel Atoms, and CAFE racing bikes.

Point being, a mush-handling, heavy-bodied lugger more akin to a Fed vessel that gets outperformed by what is widely acknowledged as the worst Fed Cruiser in the game.

because DPS means nothing if you can't get the guns on target, in a Fed squad, it's not nearly as much of an issue, but in KDF hands, bringing guns to bear is a major part of how most die-hard Klinks play-and when you're talking about investing fifty dollars or hundereds of hours to get a ship for a faction, it SHOULD play to that faction's strengths, not to the factional weaknesses or the strengths of their most likely opposition.

The Bortasque plays to Fed strengths, as in feds on the other side of an Arena or C&H, or the FEds balling up at Kerrat, and there, it's fundamental flaws stand out very loudly-it's like taking a Used Austin Princess on a modern Rally course against purpose-built rally cars-the typical Fedship is purpose built to fly the way the Bortas is designed, and does so relatively well...which the bortasque does not-lugger tyres and an open exaust don't make your mid-seventies luxury/family car into a Rally Champ, they just make it look silly.

same thing here. I guess my playing mostly at hours the Aussies are awake (thanks to my work shift) or the Germans are playing, biases my sample somewhat, but I almost NEVER see Borts in the PvP ques. I see a lot of everything else, including ships I'd be afraid to take into a match, but almost NEVER Borts.
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."

Last edited by patrickngo; 12-09-2012 at 02:50 PM.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 47
# 25
12-09-2012, 02:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickngo View Post
okay...british cars then...

Rover Princess comes to mind with the Bortasque', it's advertised as an Austin DB-9, but it's performance is more in line with the Rover Princess, in a market that's used to BMW M-5's, Ariel Atoms, and CAFE racing bikes.

Point being, a mush-handling, heavy-bodied lugger more akin to a Fed vessel that gets outperformed by what is widely acknowledged as the worst Fed Cruiser in the game.

because DPS means nothing if you can't get the guns on target, in a Fed squad, it's not nearly as much of an issue, but in KDF hands, bringing guns to bear is a major part of how most die-hard Klinks play-and when you're talking about investing fifty dollars or hundereds of hours to get a ship for a faction, it SHOULD play to that faction's strengths, not to the factional weaknesses or the strengths of their most likely opposition.

The Bortasque plays to Fed strengths, as in feds on the other side of an Arena or C&H, or the FEds balling up at Kerrat, and there, it's fundamental flaws stand out very loudly-it's like taking a Used Austin Princess on a modern Rally course against purpose-built rally cars-the typical Fedship is purpose built to fly the way the Bortas is designed, and does so relatively well...which the bortasque does not-lugger tyres and an open exaust don't make your mid-seventies luxury/family car into a Rally Champ, they just make it look silly.

same thing here.
It has always been my impression that what set the difference between Federation Starships and Klingon Warships were simple: their purpose.
If there's one thing absolutely no Klingon ship is without (Orion ships excluded as they're not Klingon) it's damage output whether it be by use of pets or ship mounted Cannons. Fed cruisers are more about being giant bricks that take multiple ships to kill and can't kill anything else. Now we may have more Fed cruisers that get fire power such as the Regent, they're missing out on one of the weapons of choice for someone doing damage: Dual or Dual Heavy Cannons.
Will complaining and comparing it to cars make any difference to Cryptic or PWEs decision to leave it as it is: of course not. Will they ever change it? No. Then why complain, why not simply acknowledge that it's not the ship you're used to and adapt. The Borg never complain, so why should we.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,735
# 26
12-09-2012, 03:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by benj2293 View Post
It has always been my impression that what set the difference between Federation Starships and Klingon Warships were simple: their purpose.
If there's one thing absolutely no Klingon ship is without (Orion ships excluded as they're not Klingon) it's damage output whether it be by use of pets or ship mounted Cannons. Fed cruisers are more about being giant bricks that take multiple ships to kill and can't kill anything else. Now we may have more Fed cruisers that get fire power such as the Regent, they're missing out on one of the weapons of choice for someone doing damage: Dual or Dual Heavy Cannons.
Will complaining and comparing it to cars make any difference to Cryptic or PWEs decision to leave it as it is: of course not. Will they ever change it? No. Then why complain, why not simply acknowledge that it's not the ship you're used to and adapt. The Borg never complain, so why should we.
Design follows purpose, which goes back to the post I started this with: Why did Cryptic lose money on this?

and the answer is: it was not well designed for the market it was ostensibly intended to reach.

i.e. the Design did NOT follow the Purpose, and anyone who's looked at industries that failed or companies that failed, can find a similar pattern of product design vs. Consumer preferences.

In the mind of the typical consumer, the "Flagship" design should be, for all intents and purposes, the "Gold Standard" of the product line- I use cars because car-culture is pretty universal-whether it's rallying or formula 1 or street racing, there's a definite broad spectrum that crosses between other subcultures.

in the case of the Oddy, that 'Flagship' feeling is fairly true-it epitomizes the ethos of Star Fleet.

in the case of the Bortasque', on the other hand, that 'flagship' sense is...lacking, because the ship is NOT designed to set a gold standard example of the factional values as demonstrated both in terms of game mechanics, AND fictional 'feel'.

It's an Edsel, or an Austin Princess, in a market where the purposes go more toward B-class rallying, Formula 1, street-racing, etc.

It's the wrong ship for the role, and lost money as a result-the Orion ships long predate it, and the devs' statement followed AFTER the release..and honestly? Borts are RARE in any venue of competitive play, and successful ones even MORE rare.
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 47
# 27
12-09-2012, 03:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickngo View Post
Design follows purpose, which goes back to the post I started this with: Why did Cryptic lose money on this?

and the answer is: it was not well designed for the market it was ostensibly intended to reach.

i.e. the Design did NOT follow the Purpose, and anyone who's looked at industries that failed or companies that failed, can find a similar pattern of product design vs. Consumer preferences.

In the mind of the typical consumer, the "Flagship" design should be, for all intents and purposes, the "Gold Standard" of the product line- I use cars because car-culture is pretty universal-whether it's rallying or formula 1 or street racing, there's a definite broad spectrum that crosses between other subcultures.

in the case of the Oddy, that 'Flagship' feeling is fairly true-it epitomizes the ethos of Star Fleet.

in the case of the Bortasque', on the other hand, that 'flagship' sense is...lacking, because the ship is NOT designed to set a gold standard example of the factional values as demonstrated both in terms of game mechanics, AND fictional 'feel'.

It's an Edsel, or an Austin Princess, in a market where the purposes go more toward B-class rallying, Formula 1, street-racing, etc.

It's the wrong ship for the role, and lost money as a result-the Orion ships long predate it, and the devs' statement followed AFTER the release..and honestly? Borts are RARE in any venue of competitive play, and successful ones even MORE rare.
Perhaps so, but you conveniently skipped my point of whether your original post using grand comparisons to cars and ignoring the simple fact that complaining will not make them change it. Whether you and hundreds of others think it lacks the flagship quality, an opinion i couldn't agree with due to my experience, does not matter. Imperfect world Entertainment have their money for it, why would they change it now and it may be the reason they're not taking the risk of making new ones. The designers of the ships may already have an idea that matches your idea of the Klingon Flagship cruiser, but it's the financiers who decide whether they go through with making it.
As i said before, don't complain adapt. Keep calm and carry on as someone from this side of the ocean would say.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 249
# 28
12-09-2012, 04:02 PM
What I see is that many people in my fleet bought it. I would say at least 20-30% in my fleet got the package or at least a single one. It is the big bad battleship, right ?

Most of them then realize it requires a playstyle they are not used to. Some adapt, and use it succesfully in elite STF's, most don't. In PvP it's a one trick pony, but so are many other ships, too.

The tac Bortasq is the only KDF 5 tac console ship. It performs quite good vs. the more or less static targets in the 3 old STF's.

That beeing said, I think the OP is correct in it's assesment. You don't sell a pickup to people used to sportscars. Even if they do well in other markets.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,292
# 29
12-09-2012, 05:34 PM
Someone was able to get a hidden camera into the last Ask Cryptic - when the questions were passed to Mr Stahl by Brandon.

In the video you can see Mr Shahl sitting in the chair and Brandon standing at his desk after he asked him one of the players questions that has been asked before dozens of times:

"Will Cryptic ever finish off the KDF":


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztVMib1T4T4




So you see there is not much else to say.
Republic Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,232
# 30
12-09-2012, 08:21 PM
I know I've said this all over before, but they made the Bort so inferior to the Oddy...what do they expect? Just about every little thing down to the frigates is inferior...only thing that the Bort has over the Oddy is tac consoles.

Klingons Battlecruisers are more about agility and power, The Bort does have power...but it has no agility to speak of. It carries one BoP, but it handles similar to a ship that can carry four...and four hundred more crew.
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