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Captain
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 2,592
# 11
12-09-2012, 01:21 PM
I'm not so sure.

In Star Trek II, the suggestion is that the cadet knows it IS the no-win scanario by virtue that no one has passed it ... except one. Kirk's commendation for "original thinking" was because he did pass the test. If he revealed to anyone at Starfleet he hacked into the program he would have been booted out for cheating.

So, it is my perception that the Cadets know its not passable, but because one person did pass means it IS passable and that's their challenge. The fact Savek didn't know how he passed is testament that what he did (reprogramming AND solution) was not known to Cadets.
Kathryn S. Beringer - The Dawn Patrol

Solaris build - Veritatum Liquido Cernene
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 281
# 12
12-09-2012, 05:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcusdkane View Post
My approach to the test is:

- Place the Kobyashi Maru between my ship and the Klingons.
- Drop shields long enough to beam any survivors from the Kobyashi Maru aboard.
- Destroy the Kobyashi Maru
- Tell the Klingons to go do one...
That's the "No win" part of the scenario. Rerouting all power to transporters, for a complete, simultaneous, beam out, kills your shields, and weapons. Originally, Kirk didn't hack the klingon weapon/shields part of the program, as in the 2009 movie. The novels portrayed him hacking the communications part of the program, so he could hail the Klingons before they attacked. Once the Klingons realized they were talking to "The Federation's greatest warrior, the infamous, brutal, Captain Kirk", they ran away at maximum warp. So, not only did Kirk achieve all three victory conditions, he did it without firing a shot.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 144
# 13
12-09-2012, 07:06 PM
Having not read any of the EU novels, I always figured Prime Kirk did something sly, not something blatant. Like adjusting the timing on the Klingon's spawn-in trigger by a few seconds to give him an edge in she shields/beaming thing, or some other little stat tweak or combo of tweaks that would make it look like he just happened to luck onto a hole in the simulation's design, rather than outright flaunting cheating like in the 2009 movie or what mkilczewski describes. That said, it does fit the personality of JJ kirk to be that brazen/arrogant about it.

Also, it was made pretty clear in WOK that cadets aren't supposed to know the test even exist until they've been put through it. Presumably there would be some kind of academy rule (with appropriate punishments) for disclosing the test to cadets who hadn't undergone it yet. I love cmdrscarlet's idea of the academy exploiting Kirk's "win" to enhance/salvage the test for those who had managed to have it spoiled before hand. The JJ verse kinda squanders the whole thing though by making Kirks disciplinary hearing public, spoiling both the test itself and their potential exploit of Kirk's "success" for the whole academy.

As reginamala78 said, it's about assessing how cadets react to failure under pressure, not how they react to death per-se. For that all you need do in order to spoof them is to tell them before hand that the test is particularly important to their grade or something like that. They don't have to literally fear death, but making them think that failing to rescue the Maru or get out "alive" is vital to their future Starfleet career potential can accomplish the same thing. TNG showed us a similar academy test with Wesley (the one where they interrupted a written exam with a fake building collapse).

With all that in mind, it kinda makes you wonder what Prime Kirk did/said in his initial test(s) that caused him to fail.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,909
# 14
12-09-2012, 08:15 PM
The OP is right, all this test would do is see how many pointless things a cadet will try before getting killed in the simulation, it would test his reaction time and his decision making, but in no way could it be used to judge his character in the face of death.
The only way the test would really work is if the cadet was blindfolded, tossed on a shuttle and flown to where the simulation is taking place, every effort being made to make the cadet think that he is commanding a real ship and is in real danger, then his reactions would be noteworthy.
The scene in TNG where Crusher is being tested in what he believes is a real emergency on a station is an example of how it should be done.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 144
# 15
12-09-2012, 08:23 PM
Always hilarious to see people posting without reading the thread first.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 170
# 16
12-09-2012, 08:47 PM
Quote:
With all that in mind, it kinda makes you wonder what Prime Kirk did/said in his initial test(s) that caused him to fail.
The Kobayashi Maru isnt a pass/fail exam. Or at least it wasn't, the test was created to test a potential officer's stresses in battle. When the only thing you can do is prepare your crew for death. Simular to the Enterprise C's end. This usually only was given to those on the operations/command path. (In TNG the Redshirts. in TOS Gold.) It might have been expanded at some point that i dont know of.

Kirk didnt fail per se, But he was determined to beat it. He never believed there was a situation where one could not work their way out. And he proved it every damned time.

Kirk never liked to lose. I'm not factoring in JJ's kirk into this because you're talking about Prime's Mindset.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,137
# 17
12-10-2012, 01:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by doubleohnine View Post
Everyone know's its JUST a test. Realistically, wouldnt EVERY Starfleet cadet pass with flying colors for acting supremely confident in the face of.....a test. You would NEVER get the real reactions of future captains because you cant simulate certain death experiences if they arent ACTUALLY certain death experiences.

Kirk deserved a commendation for original thinking because Kirking your way through a silly test is the only respect that test deserved to be treated with.

So the difficulty and reverence for the test was based on the academy myth among cadets that the test WAS passable, but that no one was smart enough to do it? Only Kirk had the balls to realize Spock was trolling them?
If they believe this test is actually about beating it, then you can get people to be stressed out -people stress out on tests all the time. If a stress will affect your grades or your chance to get the officer's patent, you will be stressed by a test.

The challenge is keeping the real purpose of the test - showing how a potential Captain would handle the stress of failure - secret.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 281
# 18
12-10-2012, 04:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by outlaw51825 View Post
The Kobayashi Maru isnt a pass/fail exam. Or at least it wasn't, the test was created to test a potential officer's stresses in battle. When the only thing you can do is prepare your crew for death. Simular to the Enterprise C's end. This usually only was given to those on the operations/command path. (In TNG the Redshirts. in TOS Gold.) It might have been expanded at some point that i dont know of.

Kirk didnt fail per se, But he was determined to beat it. He never believed there was a situation where one could not work their way out. And he proved it every damned time.

Kirk never liked to lose. I'm not factoring in JJ's kirk into this because you're talking about Prime's Mindset.
It's a psyche test, cloaked in a pass/fail test that no one can pass. Star Fleet uses it to gage the psychological profile of the respective cadet, based on their reaction AT THE CONCLUSION, of the test. This info, along with other info, is then used to determine their commission. The psychological profile is distinctly different between a cadet who believes he did everything he possibly could, using all his training, to complete the scenario, from a cadet who comes away protesting the test wasn't a fair evaluation of their skills. Are you an optomist or pessimist? It's not rocket science, Police departments use the same types of test.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,439
# 19
12-10-2012, 08:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkilczewski View Post
That's the "No win" part of the scenario. Rerouting all power to transporters, for a complete, simultaneous, beam out, kills your shields, and weapons. Originally, Kirk didn't hack the klingon weapon/shields part of the program, as in the 2009 movie. The novels portrayed him hacking the communications part of the program, so he could hail the Klingons before they attacked. Once the Klingons realized they were talking to "The Federation's greatest warrior, the infamous, brutal, Captain Kirk", they ran away at maximum warp. So, not only did Kirk achieve all three victory conditions, he did it without firing a shot.
Hence why I place the Kobyashi Maru between my ship and the Klingons to take the majority of the fire while the crew are beamed over... The mission is to save the crew, the ship itself is expendable...
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 315
# 20
12-10-2012, 08:17 AM
Prior to the '09 movie, I used to hold the Kobayashi Maru test in reverence as the defining example of how one could judge someone's character in a pressure situation. I had envisioned the test being modeled after the final trial of Ender's Game (for those that read the book) where it is finally revealed all of his "tests" were actually real. Imagine if you went into KM test thinking you could be affecting real people's lives, would you react differently?

The '09 representation of the test totally changed my perspective on the Kobayashi Maru test to one of great disappointment. There is no way any of those cadets can take the third attempt at winning seriously, not even the professors grading Kirk.
Kobayashi Maru
Join Date: Sept 2008


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