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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 891
# 11
12-12-2012, 01:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by reginamala78 View Post
Thing is most of this game is single player. Building a solid heal/support ship is pretty useless if you spend most of your time as the only friendly ship in a map, and in the end you still need to do the killing yourself. And as for STFs, they're DPS oriented and I want to have to depend on and coordinate with my questionable teammates as little as possible, certainly not expect them to fit into some predefined role or be myself so pigeonholed. For the most part this is not a team game, and insulting other players for not playing how you think they should serves no purpose.
Luckily everyone can fly multiple ships of different role types, so your never shoehorned.

Any solo content is so ridiculously easy you could complete it without a single captain skill at all. The team aspect is all that matters from a balanced gameplay perspective. And yes, the end-game is heavily team oriented, regardless of whether you choose to partake or not.

Much like any MMO, if you roll into a group half-assing it with a Kirk mindset, you are going to be more a liability than an asset. I suppose we could just homogenize all the ships and make them equally capable in all aspects, cause that would be awesome

Last edited by xantris; 12-12-2012 at 01:57 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,804
# 12
12-12-2012, 03:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by xantris View Post
No. Go tell the PvP folks how terrible cruisers are in their roles and that they are "hybrids". Flying them as a hybrid is a sure fire way to mediocrity though.

Survivability is a premium in HoE, because 2 of the objectives are based around it. And cruisers bring more group survivability than any other ship type.

Bottom line, your not flying it right. You can either make them as pure support boats who's healing capacity outstrips all other ship types, or you can make them into aggro magnet that can tank and do respectable damage. Both are quite useful in HOE.
So a personal attack and an appeal to authority.

You want me to think this game is balanced based on its PvP that has more ridiculously insane overpowered combinations than an unrestricted MTG deck? Or the census of a group that took how long to agree an always hit fire at will was overpowered? Not to mention that PvP and PvE are completely types of gameplay. This is true in every single game ever created.

PvP
In PvP you face an opponent who can exploit any and all weakness that they find to tear you apart. Because of this you need to be well rounded and be capable of flexibility during the encounter. Oh and burst is king both in damage and tank. Burst and efficiency are typically completely opposite ideologies.

PvE
Against an unthinking unadaptable AI in encounters that are pretty much tank n spank efficiency is the priority. The AI lacks the intelligence to find your weakness or to exploit it. That makes hyper-specialization and efficiency king.

Why Cruisers work in PvP
A cruiser is flexible and can perform in several roles at the same time. A healer cruiser is also a tank and sustained DPS to a point. When the enemy is bright enough to kill the person keeping everyone else alive it is important they can tank too.

An FPE with Epower to Shields 1 x2, HE 1, TSS 2, RSP I, and APD x2 and a Steamrunner with Extend I x2, HE 1, ET 1, and APD x2 fly into an STF to tank/heal

Efficient
By stacking resistances to near max and a powerful amount of healing while at the same time sacrificing little to nothing in the damage dealing department this pair is borderline silly. This combo was thought up in about five minutes I'm sure there are better especially if you use lockbox escorts.

Synergy
If we are going to the extreme end of maximizing tank potential we must look at the formula. Sustain/second = heal amount * resist * dodge. Every ship gets the same heal amount, every ship can hit resist cap, and only one ship has the highest bonus defense. And yes it can mount beam arrays if it wants.

Why this would fail in PvP
A human would be intelligent enough to kill the steamrunner first.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,678
# 13
12-12-2012, 06:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by xantris View Post
Any solo content is so ridiculously easy you could complete it without a single captain skill at all. The team aspect is all that matters from a balanced gameplay perspective. And yes, the end-game is heavily team oriented, regardless of whether you choose to partake or not.
For people who have been playing this for a while yes. But 1 you're assuming EVERYONE wants to be challenged when some people specifically enjoy exploiting and abusing the AI ("Now you have my permission to die" as a mindset example). 2, not everyone is experienced with all the ins and outs of the game and its not like there's anything in-game to explain why something that used to work suddenly didn't. Even coming to these forums they're more likely to be insulted by elitists than get any assistance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xantris View Post
Much like any MMO, if you roll into a group half-assing it with a Kirk mindset, you are going to be more a liability than an asset. I suppose we could just homogenize all the ships and make them equally capable in all aspects, cause that would be awesome
Again, you're making assumptions that people are building for groups. As a premade with people you know yes, build for a certain role. With a pug you never know if its gonna be 5 escorts, 5 sci, or stuck with some troll deliberately packing skittle turrets in a cruiser, and where the the odds of communication or coordination are not in your favor. If I show up as my tac in an Armitage, i'd better be able to heal myself and carry an AOE or two, and pray that if I need to CC my Danubes will actually use the tractors I paid for till they got nerfed by whiners. If I'm my eng in an Oddy, I have ES and ET if needed, but i've also got EWP in case nobody else brings any CC and some genius blows up something they shouldn't. And so on and so forth. My builds all probably contain something that would make a premade organized group groan, but when I've no clue if my next wingmen are gonna be the best players in the game or Larry, Daryl, and Daryl, I've gotta make one ship good at its primary, but able to at least half-decently cover everything else too. And when I'm running all alone, that goes double.

There's this assumption that everyone plays or even desires to play your way at your skill level. That isn't always the case, and the derogatory comments of all the 'Kirks' out there certainly doesn't help matters. We play our game, you play yours; I don't see why thats such a problem.

PS
A ship that could do everything, doesn't rate Grade A in any one thing but gets Grade B in everything? Sounds awesome to me.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,278
# 14
12-12-2012, 06:41 PM
So whats the point of your opening post Bareel? That the fighter/ damage dealing class is the best choice in both effect and how its class meshes in a game where PewPew is the deciding skill needed in 90% of its missions?
Please tell me this is not a vieled attempt to say Escorts are OP.

Ask the Devs to fix thier game before possibly bashing a class that works well in its simple requirements.
He who laughs last thinks slowest.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,804
# 15
12-13-2012, 05:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post
So whats the point of your opening post Bareel? That the fighter/ damage dealing class is the best choice in both effect and how its class meshes in a game where PewPew is the deciding skill needed in 90% of its missions?
Please tell me this is not a vieled attempt to say Escorts are OP.

Ask the Devs to fix thier game before possibly bashing a class that works well in its simple requirements.
The point is the method of the math behind how DHCs, Escorts, and Tac abilities all interact is completely different than the vast majority of how other mechanics in this game work. That is to say that

* > +

and when only one system uses that * as often the higher the numbers become the more skewed everything gets.

It is the single thing that destroyed Diablo 3's enjoyability at endgame compared to D2 for a huge number of players. Keep in mind I've done the uber difficult MMO raid game before I do not find it very enjoyable but it does teach you just how important efficiency really is.

And no I do not want nerfs, all my toons use are in escorts anyway. I just call it like I see it and am more than capable of adapting to any nerfs/buffs in short order.

And lastly there is no gameplay fix possible beyond more content like starbase blockade and azure nebula rescue. If you simply increase the difficulty it will make the problem even worse for the hybrid. And right now for rankings the escort is the most efficient tank or DPS while the sci vessel with the right boff layout puts out the most healing. They are the Warrior/Cleric combo of old EQ.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,278
# 16
12-13-2012, 09:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
And no I do not want nerfs, all my toons use are in escorts anyway. I just call it like I see it and am more than capable of adapting to any nerfs/buffs in short order.
I was not saying you where. I was merely curious of the intention of your opening post.

Quote:
And lastly there is no gameplay fix possible beyond more content like starbase blockade and azure nebula rescue.
Well, Cryptic needs to earn thier money and find a way becuase these threads on the escort, wether bashing or just pointing out things, have become annoyingly too common and I still personaly think that most of the threads that are calling for a nerf (though this one doesn't) to Escorts, DHC's or whatever are wrong.
He who laughs last thinks slowest.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,390
# 17
12-13-2012, 10:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by xantris View Post
It did change. HOE is very conducive to a mixed captain environment. The problem is the average player in this game is so terrible that they can't handle an environment that challenges you to play properly within your class roles.
There is also a failure on Cryptic's part.

If HOE had significantly better rewards, for example 2x standard dilithium and/or 2x standard omega marks and/or guaranteed blue or higher random MK XII drop in each player's loot bag - you would see people running this all of the time.

Why run something that takes more time, and is in generally has more annoying OP NPCs than ISE which grants the same rewards?


Quote:
Originally Posted by xantris View Post
What's cryptic suppose to do?
Make harder content grant better rewards, like nearly every other MMO with some form of raid mechanic.

Add reasons for people to think about teamwork or coordinatuon outside of PvP & 1 STF.



Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
Cruisers are 'hybrids' they are not the most efficient at anything not healing not tanking not cc nothing.
They are the best at healing/self healing (tanking) and resisting damage.

If you don't see this, I think you really do not understand cruisers at all.

Last edited by ussultimatum; 12-13-2012 at 10:49 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 891
# 18
12-13-2012, 11:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post

You want me to think this game is balanced based on its PvP that has more ridiculously insane overpowered combinations than an unrestricted MTG deck? Or the census of a group that took how long to agree an always hit fire at will was overpowered? Not to mention that PvP and PvE are completely types of gameplay. This is true in every single game ever created.
No, I'm telling you that PvPer push the boundaries of ships abilities, if you think Cruisers are in some way weak because you are not flying them the way they are designed to be flown, that's your problem. If you want them to be something they are not, then feel free to continue and complain, but it hasn't changed in years and many more have come before you.

There are cruiser builds that work exceptionally well in a multitude of roles. They excel at total healing, they are fantastic tanks, and they can even do legitimate damage... But if you try and build them to do all 3 at once, or you pick the wrong platform or don't fully understand the game mechanics, you are going to be mediocre.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 891
# 19
12-13-2012, 11:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
There is also a failure on Cryptic's part.

If HOE had significantly better rewards, for example 2x standard dilithium and/or 2x standard omega marks and/or guaranteed blue or higher random MK XII drop in each player's loot bag - you would see people running this all of the time.

Why run something that takes more time, and is in generally has more annoying OP NPCs than ISE which grants the same rewards?

.
I agree. But this community would then go from mostly ignoring it to full blown bawling about it. They wouldn't step up to the challenge, they would try and tear it down to their level.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 891
# 20
12-13-2012, 11:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
. If you simply increase the difficulty it will make the problem even worse for the hybrid. And right now for rankings the escort is the most efficient tank or DPS while the sci vessel with the right boff layout puts out the most healing. They are the Warrior/Cleric combo of old EQ.
This games mechanics aren't wound that tight. It would perhaps require people that want to play a "hybrid" to utilize a proper ship instead of trying to Tank and gank in a Galaxy. It would also push those hybrids to actually use their healing, support, and debuff skills to the betterment of teammates. So a Vesta that's doing some hybrid things that's actually throwing out heals, doing sensor scans, throwing out legit damage, tanking, tossing some control around, etc is a very doable thing and harder difficulty doesn't change that at all. But the pilot has to play that hybrid role properly and to its full advantage to the benefit of the whole team
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