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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,046
# 81
12-12-2012, 09:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordmalak1 View Post
No, raptors.
BoP's have existed since TOS, tho movie canon messed that one up too.

I was flying a klingon F5 frigate in 1983 when I got my copy of SFB (was NOT a BoP on any level), could it have been a raptor ?
Sorry, but you completely lost me now.
You wrote you didn't know before TNG that there were Raptors.
There were no Raptors in TNG.
The only Raptor that ever appeared anywhere was in "Enterprise" in the year 2002 episode "Sleeping Dogs".

I'm also not really sure what you mean by BoPs have existed since TOS, several novels that appeared after Star Trek 3 but play during the TOS era have them, sure.
The 1986 novel "The First Adventure" should be one of the first to feature one.
But I don't quite understand in what way movie canon got that wrong since the Bird of Prey Kruge uses is a familiar design to the Enterprise's crew so it was certainly not brand new to them.

And while the F5 could be something related, the F5 has a nearly trapezoid rear hull and the nacelles under the hull.
Of course it could be some kind of "TOS Raptor", but then the people from SFB could hardly have anticipated what the people who would make "Enterprise" would design some 20 years later.
And depending on the angle, the glowing green light from the original version of "Saturday's Child" could just as well be a Raptor.

http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/4...coutraptor.jpg

Basically every smaller companion to the D7 that has nacelles and a neck could be a Raptor of sorts.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,766
# 82
12-12-2012, 10:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by misterde3 View Post
Sorry, but you completely lost me now.
You wrote you didn't know before TNG that there were Raptors.
There were no Raptors in TNG.
The only Raptor that ever appeared anywhere was in "Enterprise" in the year 2002 episode "Sleeping Dogs".

I'm also not really sure what you mean by BoPs have existed since TOS, several novels that appeared after Star Trek 3 but play during the TOS era have them, sure.
The 1986 novel "The First Adventure" should be one of the first to feature one.
But I don't quite understand in what way movie canon got that wrong since the Bird of Prey Kruge uses is a familiar design to the Enterprise's crew so it was certainly not brand new to them.

And while the F5 could be something related, the F5 has a nearly trapezoid rear hull and the nacelles under the hull.
Of course it could be some kind of "TOS Raptor", but then the people from SFB could hardly have anticipated what the people who would make "Enterprise" would design some 20 years later.
And depending on the angle, the glowing green light from the original version of "Saturday's Child" could just as well be a Raptor.

http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/4...coutraptor.jpg

Basically every smaller companion to the D7 that has nacelles and a neck could be a Raptor of sorts.
I meant the entire trek universe changed with TNG, and raptors appeared AFTER TNG (Enterprise) tho some non-canon ships could very well be raptors without the official name given them until 'enterprise' aired.
Quote:
Eaves' objective was to make the craft appear more primitive than the Klingon ships later in the franchise's chronology, with exposed piping and rugged design. Eaves stated that the design was made to look "like it is made up of different pieces that are attached to one another, as opposed to a uniform shape". Several designs of various sizes were proposed before Zimmerman settled on the Raptor-class. While the vessel is lightly based on Industrial Light & Magic's Bird of Prey, Eaves attempted to make the craft appear as a precursor to the D7-class.
It's been way too many years since I've seen my TOS tech books and blueprints, but they've been reconsidered as non-canon anyway.

Quote:
At the end of the first season of Star Trek: The Next Generation, all licenses for Star Trek spin-off fiction were renegotiated and the animated series was essentially "decanonized" by Gene Roddenberry's office. Writers of the novels, comics and role-playing games were prohibited from using concepts from the animated series in their works.[6] Among the facts established within the animated series that were called into question by the "official canon" issue was its identification of Robert April as the first captain of the USS Enterprise in the episode "The Counter-Clock Incident".
Romulans had a 'bird of prey' ship in TOS (1967??) tho ST3 'officially' stole the name many years later.
KBF Lord MalaK
Awoken Dead

You're gonna upgrade my Chel Grett for FREE but charge me $27 to upgrade my Kamarag ?

Last edited by lordmalak1; 12-12-2012 at 10:56 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,019
# 83
12-12-2012, 10:55 AM
First appearance on-screen of a BoP (klingon variety) was in the movies-in particular, Star Trek III, followed by STIV, and finally VI.

After the movies, BoPs appeared in Star Trek: The Next Generation. the interior of the common KDF ships from this game is based (loosely) on the interior shots from the episode where Riker did a stretch as an exchange officer on a KDF Bird of Prey.

TNG is also the reason you have BoPs of differing sizes-including the apocryphal K'vort (Cruiser size) BoP. (Modeling issues at Paramount)

They got more consistent as small, powerful ships in DS9, where BoPs were mainstay units in fighting the Cardies and Jem'Hadar, where they were a decent match-up against Jem'Hadar attack ships that were eating Galaxy cruisers for breakfast (and giving the Defiant a hard time.)

in TNG, BoPs were often in the company of larger KDF ships, in DS9 they were often run in squadrons-like fighters (the 'cavalry raid' Gen. Martok organized being a prime example), or as mainstay/lead elements (the KDF reinforcement at the 2nd battle of DS9) of formations.

Raptors had ONE on-screen appearance, on Enterprise.


All of this makes sense in the context of ST "History" and the destruction of Praxis-a cash-strapped Klingon Empire WOULD tend to turn to smaller ships to fill out fleet ranks during the interim between Kirk and Picard, with fewer, but better-constructed/designed cruisers operating as 'flag vessels' for squadrons (in the naval sense) made up of mostly-smaller-ships, esp. ships capable of independent operations and movement under stealth to a degree that larger vessels simply aren't capable of.

Now it's been well over 30 years since the Dominion War in STO's history, we SHOULD be seeing more and better cruisers-but those cruisers would necessarily have to actuallly BE better to draw funds for construction-the Klingon Empire's been operating at a reduced size and scale compared to the Federation for nearly a century, and you build what your infrastructure can SUPPORT.

Raptors coming back into operation makes sense in this context-their handling in the game is closer to "pocket cruiser" than "Frigate"-lots of power,but cruiser handling minus one weapons emplacement and some consumables, BoPs make sense in this context as low-cost ships that can be used for reconaissance and punch above their weight, the Vor'cha and Negh'Var make sense as manueverable enough to keep up with their squadrons while delivering the goods and tough enough to serve as flag vessels.

These all show an integrated doctrine in design/logistics and an integrated, thought-out tactical doctrine.

The Vo'Quv even works here, as a "Fleet support ship" capable of serviciing and coordinating groups of smaller BoP-class ships or fighter cover in siege conditions where raiding is ineffective or inappropriate, or where you need an 'anchor' near, but not ON, the front line-a mobile base ship.

what doesn't fit with this, is the Bortasque we actually GOT in STO; it doesn't work with the rest of them, and doesn't work well on its own-it only works as the 'anchor' for a formation of OTHER slow ships fighting in "Line" formation-which does not fit with KDF tactical doctrine as demonstrated either in the later (in-universe) era series, nor in practice with present resources in-game.

The Bortasque' works, however, in Fedball formations-aka line-grouping where it sits as anchor to a group of OTHER slow cruisers flying/hovering in close formation and coordinating defensive fire. in short, it's designed as a poor cousin of the Oddy, built to fill a similar role in a similar naval structure.

KDF doctrine is an aggressive doctrine, and the Bortasque is a defensive doctrine ship. This is the fundamental flaw of the design, one exacerbated by the cannon main gun and ability to mount DHC's that it can't use effectively due to turn-rate defects.

It 'fits' with KDF style of tactics the way a 14th century european knight in full-plate 'fits' with 19th century Apache cavalry, or the way a slow, tracked assault gun would fit with post-1950's MBT/cavalry tactics. (which is to say: it doesn't fit the tactical doctrine at ALL.)

where it fits in STO: why, in STF's. Particularly where it can be partnered with other slow turning cruisers to fight in fedball formation against fixed opposition (ISE) moving along fixed routes (ISE), slowly (ISE) so that your fixed-forward main gun and lack of manuever is less of a defect (ISE), and timing is less critical because you can't fail out the mission on the clock (ISE).
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."

Look into Vanilla PvP if you're tired of the endless pursuit of grind, utterly unbalanced selections of geardo-inspired traits, and generally unbalanced and careless 'development' made mostly to turn this game into a second job.

Last edited by patrickngo; 12-12-2012 at 11:10 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,766
# 84
12-12-2012, 11:03 AM
Raptors were a NEW creation, only seen in the series 'Enterprise' and created to be a precursor to the D7 design, so I don't understand the prominence of the Raptor class in STO since canonically it OLDER than the D7.

And I agree with you on the BoP design being messed up by writers, directors,producers when written into the later series' storylines, only later to have more rubbish considered canon explaining there are multiple versions of the ship to cover the mistakes in filming the ships scale.

After re-reading you above post I have to ask: why build a BoP thats as large as a cruiser when you have:
A: an ancient design like a Raptor being built and upgraded
B: have HUNDREDS of older D7's available for refit (canonically newer than Raptors and mass produced for numerous wars since introduction.
C: have an newer cruiser 'in production' with the Vor'Cha.

It just doesn't make sense.
KBF Lord MalaK
Awoken Dead

You're gonna upgrade my Chel Grett for FREE but charge me $27 to upgrade my Kamarag ?

Last edited by lordmalak1; 12-12-2012 at 11:23 AM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,258
# 85
12-12-2012, 11:19 AM
It always struck me has odd how the Romulans and the Klingons both had Bird of Prey.

I'm pretty sure that the Romulans had them 1st and then the Klingons improved on the concept during their alliance.

If there were ever a lock box vessel that I'd actually want to acquire a Romulan Bird of Prey would be it.

On topic of the Bortasqu:

What role (if any) in each of the Elite Space STF?s do you believe that a Bortasqu could fill?

There limited mobility makes them near useless in KA, on probe defense they have to position themselves so far off the gate that there pretty much right near the time portal and if a probe makes it past the head it's all over.

There limited mobility gimps them in Cure and Infected where speed and positioning key.

They cannot defend the Kang without backup and there very slow on probe clearing.

To be fair I would never try to defend the Kang in KA with my Vo?Quv because it's a positioning nightmare (for me at least).

When running the Cure space I always go on the probe and Cube clearing detail, it's so much easier to park my Carrier just within firing range of the probes and still be able to help deal with the BOP and Neg that spawn.

Oh the power of the advanced Bird of Prey!
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,019
# 86
12-12-2012, 11:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordmalak1 View Post
Raptors were a NEW creation, only seen in the series 'Enterprise' and created to be a precursor to the D7 design, so I don't understand the prominence of the Raptor class in STO since canonically it OLDER than the D7.

And I agree with you on the BoP design being messed up by writers, directors,producers when written into the later series' storylines, only later to have more rubbish considered canon explaining there are multiple versions of the ship to cover the mistakes in filming the ships scale.
They (raptors) DO fit with a cash-strapped Klingon Empire, though-as Cruiser replacements to fill out and anchor squadrons of light ships, or to serve as formation-buddies to existing post-Praxis KDF Cruisers in squadron formation for heavy combat applications where BoPs are just "too thin skinned" to do the job.

Basically as intermediate-sized vessels similar to the "Pocket Battleship" of the 1940's, but applied in the manner that the pocket battleships were initially intended-as grouped main line combatants supplementing either smaller 'gunboat' ships, or larger cruisers on extended operations (NOT as the commerce raiders the Pocket Warships were actually employed as, however...)

The Raptor fits the role of a Light Cruiser for a force that's scrambling to get enough ships in a short time to face down an opponent that has had the luxuries of both resources, and time, to build up an enormous navy of specialist ships.
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."

Look into Vanilla PvP if you're tired of the endless pursuit of grind, utterly unbalanced selections of geardo-inspired traits, and generally unbalanced and careless 'development' made mostly to turn this game into a second job.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,019
# 87
12-12-2012, 11:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by errab View Post
It always struck me has odd how the Romulans and the Klingons both had Bird of Prey.

I'm pretty sure that the Romulans had them 1st and then the Klingons improved on the concept during their alliance.

If there were ever a lock box vessel that I'd actually want to acquire a Romulan Bird of Prey would be it.

On topic of the Bortasqu:

What role (if any) in each of the Elite Space STF?s do you believe that a Bortasqu could fill?

There limited mobility makes them near useless in KA, on probe defense they have to position themselves so far off the gate that there pretty much right near the time portal and if a probe makes it past the head it's all over.

There limited mobility gimps them in Cure and Infected where speed and positioning key.

They cannot defend the Kang without backup and there very slow on probe clearing.

To be fair I would never try to defend the Kang in KA with my Vo?Quv because it's a positioning nightmare (for me at least).

When running the Cure space I always go on the probe and Cube clearing detail, it's so much easier to park my Carrier just within firing range of the probes and still be able to help deal with the BOP and Neg that spawn.

Oh the power of the advanced Bird of Prey!
In my post I only mentioned ONE Elite STF- Infected, and only there if you're not out to get the optional-but in Infected, parking it near the transformers and unloading after the gennies are cleared does speed things up.

Assuming the rest of the team keeps the nanite spheres off.

BIG assumption.

but as for CSE and KASE, I have to agree-it's very nearly useless in both.
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."

Look into Vanilla PvP if you're tired of the endless pursuit of grind, utterly unbalanced selections of geardo-inspired traits, and generally unbalanced and careless 'development' made mostly to turn this game into a second job.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 130
# 88
12-12-2012, 12:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by errab View Post
It always struck me has odd how the Romulans and the Klingons both had Bird of Prey.

I'm pretty sure that the Romulans had them 1st and then the Klingons improved on the concept during their alliance.
In the drafts for The Search for Spock; the Bird of Prey now in the KDF was originally a romulan design. I believe at one draft copy, it was supposed to be stolen by the klingon crew.
Republic Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,474
# 89
12-12-2012, 05:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by errab View Post
I think you've just solved the mystery.

In testing the Bortasqu was getting rave reviews and then Cryptic severely gimped it before it went live.

I had forgotten all the rage posts about how the Bortasqu was crippled beyond all belief but the Odyssey was barely touch and pretty much played the same has it was on tribble.
I never really payed attention back then, may I ask its stats if you recall them?
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 34
# 90
12-13-2012, 01:21 AM
just an fyi i have successfully defended kang with my voq'uv i just had a friend drop the right side as we start. I go left right defense till middle probes cleared and then left middle till right cube droped then destroy the left raptors while middle ones are taken by the 4 people left over. Im sure the bortasqu(sp) with a good captian and right gearing could do the same thing. As for slugginess of the voq'uv im sure my kar'fi could do the job way easier but i have done it successfully only switching when the escorts have issues with taking out the bigger spawned ships.

As for the raptor /shrug how can we claim cannon or not as that is really what the owners deside is cannon. Raptors and BoP are not my type of fighters but you give me a slow turning ship and i turn it into the cruiser/carrier of death. I enjoy taking out a side of Transformers in Kase. Defending probes. Taking out kang duty or dps duty in CSE. or saving the day in ise with my carrier even though it turns like the titanic in an ice flow.

Klingon isnt about the ship you fly but how you do it with the crappiest selection you get given. Klingons are the Gnomes of the Star trek world. They take the crap turn it into something usefully then beat the odds with it!
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