Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,027
# 21
12-13-2012, 02:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bugshu View Post
I drove that ford for 7 years past the star bolt issue....

Guess how much I spent with Ford and its dealers....

Even if people are playing it doesnt mean they will be paying...

Think about it
But you forget, there are a lot of the Free-to-play crowd who will buy any shinie that comes out, impulse buying or otherwise. Even if they only stay around to buy the shiny, they buy it and the profits increase.

That's a good deal of money right there. The other crowd will come and go as they please, but their profits don't quite compare. It's a truth of MMO's, as far as I've seen.

So I wouldn't worry too much about the money issues. There's plenty to go around, even if some of us just left right now. But I'll stay regardless, as though grind is merely 'meh' to me, I think this game IS fun
Was named Trek17, but still an author.

Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh'.

Last edited by trek21; 12-13-2012 at 02:48 PM.
Super Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,626
# 22
12-13-2012, 03:07 PM
Ok, the car analogy has run its' course and it's off-topic. Let's drop that. Whether I am a fanboy moderator or not is also not germane to this discussion.

To get back on topic, what do you want Cryptic and PWE to do differently starting today that would earn your business...? and by that I do definitely mean what can they do with STO that would persuade you to give them money?

That is exactly the feedback they need to hear.

The whole broken promises meme might well have been true, but it's beside the point. You can't change history. You can choose to be a bitter ex-customer or you can decide to make them work for your business.

What are they doing or not doing now that they need to change in order to earn your business?
Volunteer Community Moderator for the Star Trek Online forums -- My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. If you wish to speak to someone on the community team, file a "forums and website" support ticket here, as we are not able to respond to PMs regarding moderation inquiries.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 73
# 23
12-13-2012, 03:50 PM
Well a lot of it I put in my thread and if people would read it instead of chopping it they would see some positive solutions.

First of all, Id like to see everyone that spends time in game welcomed and rewarded. If you come here daily instead of playing a different game we will give you a bonus. And we will do it with everyone of your alts. People should feel welcome, valued, and cherished when they choose this game over another.

Secondly, Id like for everyone that plays get to enjoy their character as much as they want to. And the first step in the process is better explanations of the skill tree and the second step on the ladder is free respecs. It makes people angry to do a build and then something gets nerfed and they have to pay $5 to "fix" their character they didnt break. People would be a lot happier if they could fiddle with their characters and change things so they could fine tune them and improve them.

Thirdly, I think that every mission in the game should be rewarding in some shape form or another. I think that explore missions should pay more than they do. 10 diplomacy points for a diplomacy mission is nothing when you need 100,000 of them. You should get at least 1000. And, it could be spread outward so that you might get 1000 military points for a combat explore mission. I think that patrol missions should be reintroduced and the rewards boosted. There are some fun patrol missions but nobody played them because they offered lame or no rewards. I think every story mission should have one top tier reward like the featured episodes do. The nerfed rewards like the Breen Thermal Dampener that now does nothing should be fixed so that they have value. The efficient impulse engine should be unnerfed and fixed so that at end game content it has value again. The HarghPengh torpedo launcher should have value again. There are lots of things people want and enjoy and would enjoy having access to in the game. Nobody would complain about doing cage of fire if they could get a mk xi purple phaser relay out of the deal. A mk ix blue kit isnt so special. Id like to see the trophy missions fixed and perhaps a costume piece added to the game that showed that you beat it. People would enjoy beating the big dig if they got digger boots that they could wear and everyone could see. Sure you get a trophy for your ship but why not a costume piece as well. Id like to see more raid/stf missions put back into the game. Id like to see the old school stfs put back into the game. If a team could pull off ground/space cure before they got split then they should be allowed to try and be rewarded for it. Id like to see stfs feature different rewards like they used to so that people didnt only want to run ISE because its the easiest one. Id like to see deep space encounters offer reasons to do them with better rewards. Id like to see the non combat diplomacy missions brought back and made relevant again and Id like to see more of them. If someone does everything is old again and gains the accolade then they should get rewarded for it. How hard would it be to give them 1000 diplomacy points or a special duty officer?

For missions across the board, Id like to see more sandbox and less grind. Id like to see players choosing the missions they would like to do and want to do rather than "end game" missions they have to do over and over and over again. I think there should be one currency for mission rewards and every mission should pay some of it. Heres a thousand STO points and you can use it for dilithium projects, fleet mark projects, Omega mark projects, Lobi store purchases, Romulan mark projects, trade them on the exchange or whatever.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 642
# 24
12-13-2012, 03:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yggdrayuril View Post
Considering PWE owns several pretty successful F2P MMOs, in the west... I'm not sure about them "not understanding the market".
None of them AAA and one of which is a much grindier rip off of ******** itself.

(edit: lol, really? The word w4rcr4f7 is censored??)
Super Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,626
# 25
12-13-2012, 04:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bugshu View Post
Well a lot of it I put in my thread and if people would read it instead of chopping it they would see some positive solutions.

First of all, Id like to see everyone that spends time in game welcomed and rewarded. If you come here daily instead of playing a different game we will give you a bonus. And we will do it with everyone of your alts. People should feel welcome, valued, and cherished when they choose this game over another.
Ok, you believe people should get a reward just for logging in, then? I disagree with that particular idea, but I'm on board with everything else you just said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bugshu View Post
Secondly, Id like for everyone that plays get to enjoy their character as much as they want to. And the first step in the process is better explanations of the skill tree and the second step on the ladder is free respecs. It makes people angry to do a build and then something gets nerfed and they have to pay $5 to "fix" their character they didnt break. People would be a lot happier if they could fiddle with their characters and change things so they could fine tune them and improve them.
I agree. They ought to give out free respecs when they make major changes to skills, or how skills interact with powers. Everything else is really just a matter of being careful to rebalance powers and items as needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bugshu View Post
Thirdly, I think that every mission in the game should be rewarding in some shape form or another. I think that explore missions should pay more than they do. 10 diplomacy points for a diplomacy mission is nothing when you need 100,000 of them. You should get at least 1000. And, it could be spread outward so that you might get 1000 military points for a combat explore mission. I think that patrol missions should be reintroduced and the rewards boosted. There are some fun patrol missions but nobody played them because they offered lame or no rewards. I think every story mission should have one top tier reward like the featured episodes do. The nerfed rewards like the Breen Thermal Dampener that now does nothing should be fixed so that they have value. The efficient impulse engine should be unnerfed and fixed so that at end game content it has value again. The HarghPengh torpedo launcher should have value again. There are lots of things people want and enjoy and would enjoy having access to in the game. Nobody would complain about doing cage of fire if they could get a mk xi purple phaser relay out of the deal. A mk ix blue kit isnt so special. Id like to see the trophy missions fixed and perhaps a costume piece added to the game that showed that you beat it. People would enjoy beating the big dig if they got digger boots that they could wear and everyone could see. Sure you get a trophy for your ship but why not a costume piece as well. Id like to see more raid/stf missions put back into the game. Id like to see the old school stfs put back into the game. If a team could pull off ground/space cure before they got split then they should be allowed to try and be rewarded for it. Id like to see stfs feature different rewards like they used to so that people didnt only want to run ISE because its the easiest one. Id like to see deep space encounters offer reasons to do them with better rewards. Id like to see the non combat diplomacy missions brought back and made relevant again and Id like to see more of them. If someone does everything is old again and gains the accolade then they should get rewarded for it. How hard would it be to give them 1000 diplomacy points or a special duty officer?

For missions across the board, Id like to see more sandbox and less grind. Id like to see players choosing the missions they would like to do and want to do rather than "end game" missions they have to do over and over and over again. I think there should be one currency for mission rewards and every mission should pay some of it. Heres a thousand STO points and you can use it for dilithium projects, fleet mark projects, Omega mark projects, Lobi store purchases, Romulan mark projects, trade them on the exchange or whatever.
I wholeheartedly agree that people should be reasonably rewarded for pretty much everything they do in this game, except for "housekeeping" tasks. Every mission should reward at least a little Dilithium and CXP's from at least one Commendation category, in addition to other drops and rewards. As they introduce new Reputations, they should definitely add marks to every mission in the game that Reputation should apply to.

But we need to keep in mind that this is no longer a subscription-based game. They need to bring in money somehow. They can't just hand over everything. You've said what would make you happy... but what would you actually pay for?
Volunteer Community Moderator for the Star Trek Online forums -- My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. If you wish to speak to someone on the community team, file a "forums and website" support ticket here, as we are not able to respond to PMs regarding moderation inquiries.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 73
# 26
12-13-2012, 04:17 PM
I think that every mission should have a payout that makes it worth doing and that foundry authors can pick and choose some payouts to add to their missions as well.

Fourthly, I think the game needs a real crafting system. I think that people should be able to custom design consoles, ship weapons, pets, kits, consumables etc. If someone wants a console that lets them add a phaser relay boost along with tricobalt torpedo boost they should be able to make it. It wouldnt hurt to have +8 torpedos and +8 tricobalt if you wanted to make something like that. I think that people should be able to make new and unique items if they craft that you cant get anywhere else in the game. Right now, its mostly the Aegis set and done. Crafting needs to be fun and it needs to be cheaper so people can do it without the dilithium tax.

Fifthly, I think there needs to be more ability to explore. This can be done with a random mission generator. People should be able to do random missions and get random rewards. It would be great fun to log on and rather be required to do this for a grind to just explore and see what comes up and maybe you get a random loot drop like you used to get with prototype salvage. If you do offer this then I think it needs to have higher drop rates. Nobody hated the fact that they got random drops with salvage, they just hated that the drop rates for prototype salvage was so low.

Sixthly, I think there needs to be more respect for people that spend money with the company. If you bought a best buy tribble like I did and spent $50 for it then that and the Targ should be as good as any Tribble or Pet in the game. The Targ should be a combat pet and the best buy tribble should have special stats. People should get to use their Connies they spent $50 on at tier 5. If someone has a neodymium deflector dish they should be able to use it at tier 5. It would be fun if you could craft it up to have similar stats as a mk xii defelctor dish with the aux bonus. I think $10 of zen should buy 500,000 dilithium. You would sell more zen if you gave more value for the money. I think that every ship should be able to advance to fleet level tier 5 with no more than one fleet module. KDF ships do not get the bonus that fed ships get. If you bought the ship then you shouldnt have to pay $20 for a fleet version of it. You already paid for the ship. I think everything in the zen store should be account wide unlocks. I think more people would buy crystalline hortas if they were account wide unlocks. Everything for sale in the zen shop could and should have enhanced value. I think lockboxes should go away and that Cryptic should just sell us the ships we want. I think that Cryptic should return races to pay to play and that they should update their skills and traits. If someone wants a Tellarite they should have to pay for it like I did but it should have upgraded luck and pig headed rage. I played my Tellarite daily for 2 years and not a single person told me that it was overpowered and then cryptic nerfed it anyway. If you buy something it should scale up with level and be usable until the day they unplug the game.

In other words, Id like to see the zen store have a higher quality product.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 642
# 27
12-13-2012, 04:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegeek View Post
But we need to keep in mind that this is no longer a subscription-based game. They need to bring in money somehow. They can't just hand over everything. You've said what would make you happy... but what would you actually pay for?
I have too much patience and self-control for PWE's schemes, so they already don't make money off me for their scams like lockboxes or buying dilithium. What I would buy? I like the content packs (the TOS ship package, the DS9 package) and c-store items that have an attractive ROI in function or looks. I typically wait for a 20% sale though since the c-store prices were jacked up after it went f2p.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 73
# 28
12-13-2012, 04:40 PM
I think that rewards need to be achievable. Right now, fleets absolutely cannot achieve tier 5 unless they are a mega fleet and then its hard and even as hard as it is they need the so called whales to buy lots of zen and get them there. You cant hardly invite anyone to a fleet anymore without the first question being what tier are you on...

People want to join fleets that are at tier 4 but they sure dont want to join at tier 2 and donate lots of dilithium to get them there. Lots of fleets can no longer afford the dilithium requirements to stock their stores and small fleets are in disappointment with medium fleets in chaos. Fleets are fighting a lot about who gets what from which store. Its problematic. Give people some extra dilithium, let fleets stock up on fleet ships, and see if the company cant sell a few more fleet modules.

Its win/win to let fleets grow and improve.

PvP needs a major revamp. It wouldnt even be that hard to do. Put some pvp caps into place and even things out a bit. No escort should have a hull greater than what a MVam has and no Cruiser should have more hull in pvp than a Star Cruiser. If Hulls, turn rates, Shields, and Crew were standardized for pvp then the only thing that would separate ships for pvp would be consoles, and bridge officer abilities.

There needs to be a 4th class. I dont care if they create it and charge for it but there needs to be a 4th class. Ive proposed a Hirogen class. You could charge $50 for a Hirogen Hunter and he would have one ship ever with no ability to fly another ship. The ship should have the hull of a cruiser, shields like a sci, and firepower and turn like a BOP however it would be limited to 3 consoles and 3 ensign bridge officer slots. A bounty hunter ship and class would be great. It could level up fast and hold its own at end game and new players would not need to buy a lot of gear. Make it simple and different.

Overall, players should be made to feel welcomed and valued for showing up. They should be given more missions and things to do and they should be allowed to choose what they want to do. There should be more sandbox and less grind. People should be able to craft gear and if they buy something in the Zen store it should be something great and a lot of fun. There shouldnt be missions or progression held arms length away where players will never get there and just get frustrated trying wheter it be low drop rates on salvage or fleet projects that nobody will get close to in the future. PvP should be fun accessible to all and on an even playing field. And there needs to be more variety beyond having a billion ships to buy and few missions to play. Adding another class to the game would do for STO what Pandas did for WoW.

Most of all quit gating peoples time. People are spending their free time here and they want to pick and choose what is fun for them and what is not. Always, Always, Always respect your customers and players and the people keeping you in business. Cryptic is too busy telling us how to enjoy the game rather than letting us tell them what might be fun for us. People game to find respect and social interaction that they miss out on in real life and the rats race of the world. Treat people nice and they will buy your products. Tell them that you are smarter than them and want to gate their time and its Hasta La Vista baby.

I have more but this would be a good start
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 8
# 29
12-14-2012, 01:33 AM
Problem is what is 'fun' is a matter of perspective. Me personally don't like doing the episodes except for the rewards, why? because they are single player and the game is inferior to single player because its supposed to be an MMORPG which is honestly what I would like to play while playing it.

For me, if its fun - thats all the reward it needs. I did Borg PuG STF's constantly at season 6's release, partly for the grind but even after getting the gear I wanted simply because they were fun. If there were Afkers or players I simply didn't like/wasn't willing to tolerate I would endure it maybe to avoid being penalised for dropping or if I could just drop when I had enough, the loot became unimportant. The stuff in the C Store and the exchange are usually either requirements/gating or optional extra's. The monetisation of the game is simply a necessity of operation, I am lifer however and simply put there is no reason force me to pay more to enjoy the game. Which is why I rarely play STO or even have it installed.

If the game isn't fun, it will die. period.

That is Cryptic/Perfect World's problem not mine. Even as a Lifer I can say that I have no reason to 'expect' anything and every reason to complain since I'm still technically a subscriber with a paid-for-right to one about STO.

I understand your sentiments, the recent Winter Event - Snowmen event was one of the recent things I enjoyed in STO (until today's patch) because I was a zone hopper and effectively part of the Horde that some players hated but a lot of players liked. I wasn't doing it to farm for materials for winter event items (though that is why I started doing it), I was doing it because I enjoyed the community activity which is rare in STO - Fleets might have it but I simply haven't found a Fleet that I like or even seems remotely fun - thats not something Cryptic controls or can control, its just the members of the community and how they play.

I get along with plenty of players despite being a non-Trekkie (I supported STO since Beta because I felt ST deserved to have an MMO even if I wasn't a diehard fan - I wouldn't have subbed so I just bought a Lifetime sub and have played it on an off since - as a Lifer I can always do that which is nice when there is something worth doing even if its hanging out on Tribble helping the Devs refine and/or test something : I haven't been keeping track of the Dev changes but can tell theres been a lot since I haven't helped on Tribble since the Shooter mode was being tested on it).

I find that simply put most of the players are either farming for something or doing stuff that I just don't get (figure because I'm not a trekkie). I play KDF mostly and simply put there isn't much reason to play unless someone decides to 'create'/organise an activity which I won't even be aware of unless I in-game looking for something to do (only happens moving between other games/MMO's I would play). Me personally I liked the zone hopping in the Snowmen/winter event because it was like a community wide raid activity with tons of people (most you wouldn't see but could see the effect of their actions and we could 'hear' each other in Zone & Custom Chat channels). When they patched they effectively destroyed the zone hopping activity (it wasn't a supported or designed activity so can't blame for it regardless of whether I'm happy/unhappy about it). I see a lot UI improvements and a lot of grind removed and replaced with time sink gates but very little 'Fun', mostly activities to farm for new/different loots. Simply put, I don't get it and can't seem to have 'Fun' playing so I'm shopping around for the next game and trolling the forums a bit.

My advice is (based on my experience working with the STO Dev's) figure out a way thats flexible and talk with the community about it to FIX IT. They can't give you something unless they know what it is you want and that would include HOW it works more than just a vague description. Describe features/positive elements but also expect and try to adapt/accomadate others preferances as much as possible because they supply content to ALL the players not just you and by necessity they have to get the 'biggest bang for their buck' which means any playerbase minority is going to feel ignored unless they can do their requests with minimal/efficient/existing investment/work. Them being owned by Perfect World and being more under the financial 'gun' now than before (they owned themselves and had the luxury of making their own mistakes) will only make that worse.

From I've seen in the past, the Dev's do deliver what content to you that they can as best as they can, whether you think thats good or not. IE. help the Devs help you or simply learn to accept what they give you. Also the Dev's don't have quite as much Engineering knowledge as you may think they do, so try not to go overboard with the technicals unless you can explain the Theory and practice of it fairly well (thats a lot what I did with the Dev's and they usually are doing work to spend time talking/discussing things with me and vice versus - I'm far from the only member of the community 'helping' them like that).

Last edited by psyche013; 12-14-2012 at 01:39 AM.
Super Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,626
# 30
12-14-2012, 12:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bugshu View Post
Sixthly, I think there needs to be more respect for people that spend money with the company. If you bought a best buy tribble like I did and spent $50 for it then that and the Targ should be as good as any Tribble or Pet in the game. The Targ should be a combat pet and the best buy tribble should have special stats. People should get to use their Connies they spent $50 on at tier 5. If someone has a neodymium deflector dish they should be able to use it at tier 5. It would be fun if you could craft it up to have similar stats as a mk xii defelctor dish with the aux bonus. I think $10 of zen should buy 500,000 dilithium. You would sell more zen if you gave more value for the money. I think that every ship should be able to advance to fleet level tier 5 with no more than one fleet module. KDF ships do not get the bonus that fed ships get. If you bought the ship then you shouldnt have to pay $20 for a fleet version of it. You already paid for the ship. I think everything in the zen store should be account wide unlocks. I think more people would buy crystalline hortas if they were account wide unlocks. Everything for sale in the zen shop could and should have enhanced value. I think lockboxes should go away and that Cryptic should just sell us the ships we want. I think that Cryptic should return races to pay to play and that they should update their skills and traits. If someone wants a Tellarite they should have to pay for it like I did but it should have upgraded luck and pig headed rage. I played my Tellarite daily for 2 years and not a single person told me that it was overpowered and then cryptic nerfed it anyway. If you buy something it should scale up with level and be usable until the day they unplug the game.

In other words, Id like to see the zen store have a higher quality product.
I'd like to tackle this part of your post, because it's the one that deals with the money.

I'm going to agree in general that stuff you can buy with cold, hard cash had better be at least as good if not better than anything you can get for free.

The problem with 'better' is that it carries a strong taint of Pay-To-Win that a lot of players simply don't like, especially if they're into PvP. So Cryptic needs to tread carefully here... if the Silver players grinding Dilithium into Zen feel that the deck is stacked too much against them, they'll stop playing.

The legacy unlocks, like the preorder tribble are what they are, and I'm afraid that isn't going to change. The advantage to these is that they are all, to the best of my knowledge, account-wide unlocks you can claim on as many alts as you have. In that sense, they are better than what you can buy otherwise.

I like account-wide unlocks because I like playing alts. I'm really not in favor of any per-character unlocks in the C-Store, except for certain consumable items and item slots. I don't want Cryptic to stock the C-Store with stuff to sell on the Energy Credit Exchange... I want them to stock stuff I can use on all of my alts.

The TOS Connies, well, I don't see CBS and Cryptic changing their minds on that one. What they could do is make sure that the level-scaling phasers are very nearly the best possible gear that you can have... but then that's not quite fair to the KDF, who don't have that option.

(I'd like to see the TOS Connies come with an M-5 console that you can equip on any Starfleet vessel... I'd buy that one! I'll leave what that console might do to your imaginations )

Same deal with the Lockbox ships... CBS and Cryptic aren't likely to change their minds. As bad as I want a D'Kora for my Ferengi, I'm resigned to the idea that I'll probably never get it. I'm hopeful that I can eventually stockpile EC's toward a Tuffli, but that's about it.

Direct sale of Dilithium in the C-Store has been suggested before, but I don't see it happening, ever. It's counter to their whole F2P model. Likewise, like it or not, I don't think lockboxes are going to go away either.

I do agree that every C-Store purchase should have some special value add that you can't get just by grinding (except being able to exchange Dilithium for Zen). When they gave 10 Lobi with every purchase of a special DOFF pack, that was the kind of thing I thought added value and made me want to buy.

The value add could be extra Lobi, or special commodities, or level-scaling, or account-wide unlocks, or what have you.

On the subject of a "login bonus", I think it would be doable ... as a Gold subscription perk. Otherwise, Cryptic is just giving away money and cutting into their profits. Their Free-to-play model is pinned to the idea of rewarding play time over the long term, not just logging in.
Volunteer Community Moderator for the Star Trek Online forums -- My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. If you wish to speak to someone on the community team, file a "forums and website" support ticket here, as we are not able to respond to PMs regarding moderation inquiries.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
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