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Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 366
# 31
12-13-2012, 03:43 PM
All about piloting. Yeah, right. And that is why most of you is spending "so much time in game there is barely anything left for PvP"? Face it - you are doing it, all this grind in the oh so easy and laughable PvE to gain an advantage or even the field with players that already have them. Why all this rage and discussion about new ship/console/set ruining PvP balance each time Cryptic releases something? Why? If it does not matter?

Gear matters. DOFFs matters. Passives matters. Lockbox ships matters. Of course you need to know how to use them. So piloting matter to.

And that is told by someone who has never entered endgame PvP with ship equipped with anything else then what can be bought in exchange, no P2W/lockbox ships, no DOFFs used. There were no passives when I left the game, but I would not use those either. And I was told, straight in the face, on this forum, thatn ot using DOFFs puts me on severe disadvantage. I had my fun, sure. Could compete in PuGs from time to time and had nice duels in Ker'rat with some Klings. One on one could compete even with guys from OPvP fleets.

But I felt that my ship, compared to other players was underpowered. It is that simple. No good stuff = you are weaker. Skill or not, the equipement matters.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,751
# 32
12-13-2012, 06:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zarathos1978 View Post
No good stuff = you are weaker. Skill or not, the equipement matters.
A person with Mk XII that can't keep his guns on the target will lose to the guy with Mk X that can.

A person with a build for Ship X that's flying Ship Y will lose to the person built for Ship Z that's built for Ship Z.

The guy that's using autofire is likely to lose to the guy that's bound his weapons for greater efficiency with BOFF abilities.

If you take two equally skilled pilots and give one better gear, then yes - the gear will matter.

If you give somebody that has no clue what they're doing the best gear and somebody that can play with their pinky toes while eating Cheetos lesser gear - the gear won't matter.

Gear can compensate to an extent, but it's not a fix-it-all.

Where the P2W stuff and all the rest come into play...is that you're going to lose to the equally skilled player. You're definitely going to lose to the more skilled player. You might even lose the slightly less skilled player. You've still got the chance to beat the guy you're more skilled than...

Even if you break out some major cheese on somebody and get them - if they're a better pilot, they're going to adapt - see what you're doing and frag you the next time.

Take a racecar driver and your average daily commuter. Take them to a curvy track. Give the racer a Toyota Yaris. Give the commuter a F12berlinetta. The racer's going to win. The commuter's going to have get another job or two to pay off the burning husk he made of a beautiful car.

There's a world of difference between just having gear - and - knowing how to use that gear.

Again, no doubt - if you take two racers and give one a Yaris - the guy in the Ferrari will win... gear will matter. Obviously in the case of our racer and commuter...not in the least.

Most folks will fall in between those two. Many folks can accept where they sit on the skill hierarchy - they realize just who better gear will give them an edge over and who it won't give them an edge over...

...some folks simply cannot accept this, though.

Even though...

...it's irrefutable.
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 585
# 33
12-13-2012, 07:39 PM
Another thing to keep in mind is that, like it or not, DOffs do not exist in the same paradigm of importance as your weapons, consoles, or Deflector/Engines/Shields. They are squarely in the realm of your Bridge Officer powers in terms of importance, and are capable of making BOff power setups that would otherwise be suicidal, viable.

For an Escort or Sci Ship they can let you run two different EPtS powers end to end like a Cruiser. For a cruiser (useful for pretty much anything not running a ton of Aux-dependent power, excepting the Steamrunner and Jem Bug) with 2 Lieutenant Engineering power slots, you can run all of your other slots as though their powers were duplicated.

For all of their importance, however, they are something of a pain to acquire and represent a significant investment in terms of time, energy credits, Fleet Marks, and dilithium while also representin a far bigger hurdle to overcome than simply acquiring weapons, shields, deflectors, engines, and consoles that are PvP-ready.

The Tier 4 space reputation abilities are also something of a conundrum. Pointedly, both the placate and shield regeneration passives are way out in the boonies in terms of power and, as far as I understand it, at the top of the list to be revised.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,671
# 34
12-13-2012, 07:52 PM
this isn't a turn based game, its real time. of course skill, experience, and piloting ability are the most important thing. im grinding all the gear, doffs, and passives so i stay competitive with my peers, when there is equal skill thats the only time gear starts to mater at all.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,273
# 35
12-13-2012, 08:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmerless View Post
I honestly don't mean this in any insulting way possible, but the kind of player who'd only do PvP for material rewards isn't the kind I'd want queueing. The queues have already suffered the latest horde of dil farmers, if you're not queueing for a love of the game you're not being fair to your teammates.

If you absolutely must bribe people, at least tie a win condition in to the rewards or something.
This is what I meant, personally. I like the kill missions, where you have to defeat a certain number of enemy player ships to fulfill. True, it could be done by participating in gankfests. . .but at least you're still doing something. The 'finish mission three times' one for Ker'rat and whatnot is far too easy, especially on KDF. You literally just have to sit cloaked somewhere, and check every 2-3 minutes to make sure you're still alive after a reset. You don't even have to be on the winning side, you just have to be in the zone.

Missions with requirements that force you to do something would be great. I don't like AFKers, myself, especially since Ker'rat zones don't hold a lot of players.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,273
# 36
12-13-2012, 09:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
It's still kind of funny how Ker'rat goes depending on the time.

There could be 10 KDF and 2 Feds.
There could be 10 Feds and 2 KDF.

Rarely do I ever see 2 and 2 or 10 and 10.

There's still the folks that also switch sides - which is kind of funny on the KDF side, since they're going Fed when the Feds outnumber the KDF so they can get their KDF Captain killing.

Ker'rat is...broken - broken on so many levels - and it has been for so long. The only thing they've addressed with it was making it so folks couldn't quickly AFK farm the Dil... the rest? Yeah, I wouldn't hold my breath. Stretchy, hidden, restart respawn, side switching, and all the rest... yeah, wouldn't hold my breath.
I agree Ker'rat is broken. I even complain about it in Ker'rat on occasion. It's still fun, because it's a fluid environment. While the Feddies might dominate (and then hypocritically spawncamp) for a while, the KDF usually make a comeback and rule the zone for a while. This can happen within a 1-2 hour timespan.

I've spent enough time in Ker'rat to see some really equal melees, actually. I've seen it when there's only 2-3 players on each side, 5-6 players on each side, or 10 players on one and 1 on the other.

Victory is not guaranteed, unless you're in a JHAS and you're good.
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 312
# 37
12-14-2012, 12:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by travelingmaster View Post
Fly in Ker'rat. Bring friends. Keep your finger on your defensive buffs.
I brought some friends into pvp. We had some fun matches. But they stopped because the queues were too empty. No one likes waiting 20-30min for a match when you could have in the same done 2 ESTFS, some mark grinding or 2 MWO matches :-P
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,943
# 38
12-14-2012, 01:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by travelingmaster View Post
This is what I meant, personally. I like the kill missions, where you have to defeat a certain number of enemy player ships to fulfill. True, it could be done by participating in gankfests. . .but at least you're still doing something. The 'finish mission three times' one for Ker'rat and whatnot is far too easy, especially on KDF. You literally just have to sit cloaked somewhere, and check every 2-3 minutes to make sure you're still alive after a reset. You don't even have to be on the winning side, you just have to be in the zone.

Missions with requirements that force you to do something would be great. I don't like AFKers, myself, especially since Ker'rat zones don't hold a lot of players.
Agreed.

The best thing for PvP is to have it give rewards that are worth it for activities that benefit every PvP player. Not having good rewards also has you lose PvPers, as they still want/need their Dilithium et al for gear or ships that interest them. Having rewards for activities that don't benefit every PvP player invites AFK farmers that ruin the game.

Kill, Assist and Win rewards could achieve all this.
Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 347
# 39
12-14-2012, 02:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjaymor78 View Post
No PvP is an unbalanced system; having to grind for gear makes PvP extremely unattractive. Haven't PvP'd in about 2 plus years (Used to PvP a lot), but since I spent 45 Million on 4 Tactical Consoles just to have them outdated less than a month later, yeah I'm done with PvP.

If gear was easier to get I would probably PvP more and with Tactical Consoles costing 45 Million each, instead of 11 Million each, and needing 5 now instead of 4 yeah PvP is even more unattractive. If they made it easier to get gear or put a cap on the exchange then more people would probably PvP.

But the ranters and ragers in the STO forums won't let that happen, so PvP will continue to die, boot camp or not an unbalanced system and users having to grind forever to possibly get good gear and then have that gear outdated in the next patch, yeah PvP will continue to die, oh well it was fun 2 plus years ago.

Go ahead and say if you don't want to put the time into grind for gear then don't PvP. . . . . . . . ok
You hit the nail on the head on one of your points more than most people will realize.

CONSOLES

Multiple things factor in here. MK XII Very Rare Consoles are almost impossible to come by in game. That leaves the exchange as the only way to obtain them. Considering most Very Rare Mk XII consoles go for more than ten million EC, a silver player like myself can never obtain them no matter how much we grind. I'm only allowed to carry ten million EC so anything priced higher than that is not obtainable. The Embassy consoles are a step in the right direction, but are only science consoles. Until we can obtain MK XII Very Rare console by some in game mechanic other than waiting for a once in a lifetime drop, there will always be a hard cap on the Silver Account player's ability to gear up.

We have a crafting system that is not bad in the way it works. You can obtain the materials by running doff missions or exploring clusters and spend a little dilithium for the Uncommon and Common Unreplicatable mats, but other than the AEGIS Space Set, nothing you can make is any better than the garbage drops you get from Fleet Actions and other PvE Que missions.

I hope the Embassy consoles are a glimpse of things to come and eventually we will be able to get tactical and engineering consoles also through some branch of the reputation/starbase system or through crafting. This would go a LONG way towards creating gear equity, which is essential to balanced PvP gameplay.

IMHO , Star Trek Online is doing a very good job of keeping balance between Grind to win and Pay to win, (don't believe me? try PWI or BSGO and see how quick you realize you are going to need to swipe a credit card to have ANY chance to be top tier) and I believe addressing this console issue would make be a huge step in making it possible for everyone to have a chance to let skill decide the outcome of the PvP game.

Last edited by glassguitar; 12-14-2012 at 02:12 AM.
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 312
# 40
12-14-2012, 02:14 AM
You can increase the EC cap for a mere 500 Zen . That ~52500 Dill . 2 weeks of dill grinding.

Or if you have a klingon , you can easily get that much dill with doff missions within ~1-2 mounths.

But getting the MXXII consoles without the exchange is pure grind with ESTF's, fleet action and the children toys' doff chain.
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