Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 15
# 51
12-13-2012, 08:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post
so why should I and others lose out for trying to get the greatest joy from my favorite game?


Ive been slinging the same logic about KDF gameplay for a while now. Do you really want ise it to justify this fed change?
I just ask because us KDF fans would like that same question answered.
Well the thread seemed to be originally based on fed cruisers needing a turn rate increase, but some of the larger kdf ships do indeed need the same, just not most of the battle cruisers like some have said, they are fine (i've seen plenty turn as well escorts), its just the big ones like the vo'quv, bortas, ect.

Also, yes I personally would use that to justify the fed change, since I also support the same for KDF gameplay, I love playing KDF too, just fed is more fun because of the fact that they have a broader content. In addition, last I heard KDF gameplay is the next project, if not then it is coming sooner than most think. I don't remember the name of the post, but it was definitely announced that KDF content is being worked on and will most likely be the next season, I don't know if this has changed though.

Last edited by krusso10; 12-13-2012 at 08:10 PM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 245
# 52
12-13-2012, 08:09 PM
Quote:
(i've seen plenty turn as well escorts)
I'd like to know which one can turn with escorts, because my Flor'Kaht doesn't and it's one of the better-turning battlecruisers..
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,764
# 53
12-13-2012, 08:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by truewarper View Post
As much this idea could have possibilites...the merits of it more factually based in reality.

FACT--A World War 2 PT boat has a better truning rate to a destroyer of that time.
FACT--A today's modern Aircraft Carrier needs a mle or so, to come to a complete stop.
FACT--A person on rollerblades may be able to turn better on a difficult corner, than on a person on a motorcycle.

The common factor with all three examples, is size, speed and how much control of turning one has from the first two factors. The smaller the craft/ship/vehicle is, the more speed one can attain, the biggger it is, is quite the opposite, but you will have more control, but less speed.

This is commonly known in the field of science...but yes, this is a video game, such things in reality should not apply.


I would be fine with fed cruisers having a slow turn but fast spin rate versus the KDF having a faster turn versus but slower spin rate.
Richard Hamilton (1975-2014)
goodbye good friend. We will see you in the DMZ in the sky oneday, save a shot for us.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 15
# 54
12-13-2012, 08:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wunjee View Post
I'd like to know which one can turn with escorts, because my Flor'Kaht doesn't and it's one of the better-turning battlecruisers..
My fleetmate was using a fleet tor'kath, 1 RCS console and turned almost as well my fleet qin heavy raptor that had no RCS consoles at 1/4 impulse speed, both using KHG Mk XII engines. It also depends if you have any skill points in thrusters.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,090
# 55
12-13-2012, 08:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post
The eluding to the KDF being equalized to the feds via cheese.
I can see where it might have come off like that. It was really more about how it appeared that Cryptic took that route early on. Rather than giving KDF ships balanced against Fed ships on their own right...they added "stuff" to try to reach that balance. When they started breaking out the cross-ship console stuff earlier in the year...yeah...and well, it's kind of mind-boggling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by travelingmaster View Post
You don't balance gameplay by making both factions identical.
Never said that was the way to balance things. At the same time, there are just going to be certain things that both sides will have.

Carriers? The Federation is made up of how many different planets?
Battle Cruisers? The Federation is made up of how many different planets?

Consider the KDF... Nausicaan, Orion, Gorn, and even Fek'Ihri influence are right there along with the Klingon stuff.

Kind of like the Romulans and the Hirogen, eh?

If you go to participate in a car race, you don't complain that other folks showed up with...cars...too, right? Are all those cars going to be the same? Nope, there's going to be various differences to them (all while keeping within whatever rules apply to the race).

I come from the school of opportunity cost.

Say we're designing a ship, eh? For it to be balanced against other ships, you take a look at the stats you want to give it.

Take X ship first. It's got high health, mediocre damage, low turn.
Say we want Y ship to turn faster. In turning faster, we're likely also going to be increasing the damage it does. So we're going to have to drop the health to balance Y against X.

Sometimes Cryptic does that - sometimes they don't. Sometimes it looks like they're going to do that, and then they go off on a tangent.

It's kind of weird, because we've got our little power sliders there. We move one up, the other three drop down - unless we've locked them or there's no room for them to go down further...in which case we can't increase that one any more.

Yet when you look at the ships...yeah, there's no sliders. There's no balance of X vs. Y.

I'm not sure they really ever will. They're going to continue throwing toys at the Feds in the hope they buy them - they're going to continue throwing cross-faction toys out in the hope that some Feds and KDF will buy them.

Given the differences between the Ody and Bortas, I'm really curious what the 3rd Anniversary ships will be, eh?

Hard to tell if they're actually going to do the Ambassador for the Feds there or not - kind of leaning toward that with the mention of the FE and all the rest playing on the Romulan stuff. So what does that mean for the KDF? Will they drop out some sort of pseudo cruiser for the KDF? Will it be a ship "balanced" against the Ambassador, will it be a ship balanced against some other Fed ship, or will it just be another BoP? I'm trying to remember that episode. So what, K'Vort Battle Cruiser/BoPs?

Meh, I'm done with this thread... I disagree that Cruisers need better turn. I just think that certain ships have way too high of a turn - they're basically turning like fighters, like I said earlier in the thread.

Have fun, all...
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V.S.S. Oracle, D'Kyr-class Science Vessel
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 245
# 56
12-13-2012, 08:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by krusso10 View Post
My fleetmate was using a fleet tor'kath, 1 RCS console and turned almost as well my fleet qin heavy raptor that had no RCS consoles at 1/4 impulse speed, both using KHG Mk XII engines. It also depends if you have any skill points in thrusters.
So he had to console/skill it to turn that well, it didn't do it by default.

I can think of consoles I'd rather use then RCS consoles..

Your Raptor still turned better, despite his sticking RCS consoles on, while you had none.

That in no way means battlecruisers turn with escorts..

The Flor'Kaht is maneuverable for a cruiser, but it's still nowhere near as maneuverable as, say, an HEC...

Last edited by wunjee; 12-13-2012 at 08:45 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 57
12-13-2012, 10:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by krusso10 View Post
I never said anyone is forcing me to fly it, I never said it is an optimal tank (although not optimal it can be made very hard to kill if you know how) and the whole point is that yes, I can fly starfleet ships and yes some are still effective, but the Breen ship still makes the offensive Starfleet cruisers obosolete in many ways, the only thing left is that they have a better boff setup for survival instead of damage, yet in pve you really don't need a whole lot of heals and defense buffs.

Yes it is from Star Trek, but as you also mentioned it has been encountered by Starfleet before, and now the availibility in the game implies that Starfleet has complete access to it, therefore why wouldn't they be able to adapt the technology that makes it so maneuverable from it to give exsiting cruisers a higher turn rate? Plus you miss the fact that in the show any ship outfitted for war was considered a warship (the Galaxy class Enterprise D was called a warship by other factions although by Starfleet designation it was a cruiser) and the npcs in the game are named Breen Chel'grett Cruiser, so where is this warship class coming from? That would imply that it is either not a warship or that it is not the original from the series, so the point is invalid.

I also decided to read some of your other posts, and saw that you are obviously in favor of OP ships and other players comment on the matter and you return with something saying that you spent a lot of time on it and refuse to view it as OP. So I see no more point in discussing the matter with you.

The whole thing has also become rather off topic from the thread, so I will not make any further reply on the matter.

Subject terminated.
"Subject terminated." Right. So because you have that lifer tag under your name and you don't agree with someone, you just terminate the subject? Leaving no room for someone to answer is an immature and straight out sad thing to say and do. So I will ignore what you said and answer anyways.

Now to answer your post. Yes, it makes some fed cruisers obsolete, but that doesn't matter. You can still fly them all you want. Which is what you were getting at before, since it seems like you were implying due to the difference in ability, you would be forced to use the Breen warship, and I was simply stating that you didn't have to.

And as for your second point, starfleet only has access to it at Q's pleasure. And the way the Breen get that kind of maneuverability from their ships is easy. If you read Memory Alpha and other Star Trek technical manuals, you will see what the Breen did is not special kind of technology. They just position the engines on their ships further apart than on most federation and klingon ships, and they use MORE THAN ONE ENGINE. This gives them huge speed and turn capabilities, which is reflected by the breen warship in this game.

However that doesn't entirely answer your question as to why doesn't Starfleet use that same tech? It's simple. They do use the same technology. But they don't maximize their ship designs the same way the Breen and other species do. Starfleet is notorious for having ships that are incredibly modular and adaptable, but not maximized for any particular role. The Chel Grett was designed with combat solely in mind. It's like the Undine Nicor, Klingon Vor'cha, Hirogen Hunter Escort, Romulan Mogai, Andorian Shran Class, and most Dominion ships. It's a combat ship, nothing else. Most Starfleet ships are multi-pupose ships. They aren't maximized for fighting, moving, or anything. They can do them, but tend to not specialize in them. The only ship that was in Canon designed by starfleet solely for combat was the Defiant and her class. But if you look at where her engines, more specifically impulse manifolds are located? They are on the "wings", the outer edge of the ship. Further from the center than any previous design. Which if you know how engines work, makes their maneuverability skyrocket. Look at a Chel Grett. Same design. Engines located FAR from the center mass of the ship. Same result.

I will grant you that as time went on, Starfleet started to build more ships that were combat oriented (like the Sovereign and subsequent designs), but for the most part, they tended to follow the usual engine designs of the previous models, with the impulse manifolds basically directly behind center mass, which meant that turning was harder on the ship, and would happen more slowly as a result.

And for your next point about the warship as opposed to cruiser designation? That is actually a legitimate question. Allow me to answer.

Quote:
Remember! Captains who participate in the "Fastest Game on Ice" event 25 times during the 35+ days of the Winter Event will skate their way to a FREE Breen Chel Grett Warship! Stats on the ship have been posted here.
Straight from the dev blog (link). And wait, there's more!

Quote:
... Breen Chel Grett is a formidable Warship, and it is extremely maneuverable for its size...

The Breen Chel Grett Warship comes with...
(link)

As you can see, it's a Breen Chel Grett WARSHIP. Hell that second page introducing the ship is even titled as such. It's not a cruiser. The BOff layout alone says that. There is no cruiser (not even on the KDF side) that doesn't have a Cmdr Engineering slot. And yet the Chel Grett doesn't. There is no cruiser with a Cmdr Tactical slot. And yet the Chel Grett has one. Sorry buddy, not a cruiser.

If you even look at the NPCs in game, you will see them under the cruiser class yes. But that's what ALL ships that size are. Escorts and Science ships fall under that same category. You don't believe me? You say you do KDF crap all the time. If you do the Pi Canis Sorties, check the class of the science ships and escorts they have you fight. They are obviously not cruisers, but they will usually fall under that same class.

Now as for your final paragraph, which I see as interesting and rather informative of how far back you actually look and how well your sense of balance isn't tuned, I will simply state that yes, a lot of things I posted were silly. But as I got more used to this game, the posts became a little less hot-headed and silly, and actually became viable and legitimate. Most of my cruiser threads were rage threads since I was getting heavily out-damaged by escorts and was looking at canon. It took me a while to figure out this game was anything but canon, and I had to change my perspective. Which I have done. I also learned how to maximize my cruisers performance to the point where it's no longer being left in the dust by escorts, and I am no longer wishing for too many buffs.

And back on topic? Yeah, I probably overreacted to your first post, for which I apologize. But I kind of get annoyed at OP and anyone who agrees outright with him, since I don't really like his methodology or a lot of his ideas. And I am sorry you were subject to it. However what I really feel is that yes, cruisers could use a little bit more of a turn buff, and could probably use with a do-over completely, at least as PvE is concerned. I have been told and I have found out they work wonderfully in PvP, but since this game is 90% PvE, that is the perspective I am forced to look from the majority of the time.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Tired of Wasting EC and Time trying to get Superior Romulan Operative BOffs? Here's a cheap and easy way to get them, with an almost 100% chance of success.
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Last edited by hereticknight085; 12-14-2012 at 02:10 AM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 5,539
# 58
12-13-2012, 11:37 PM
Here's a simple idea that everyone here can feel free to ignore:

Why not give the Fleet versions of all these ships (and the flagships), the turn rate buff?

I mean, a good portion of ships have a Fleet version. Everything from the Excelsior to the B'rel.

Maybe not to the escorts and BoPs, but at least all the cruisers and sci ships. Perhaps it could be an 'efficiency' thing in a way? The lower the base turn, the more it gains? Now it wouldn't be an 'equalizer', it wouldn't allow a Fleet Negh'var turn as well as the Fleet Vor'cha, but it would help a lot.

In turn, some cruisers like an Excelsior would get a nice bump up to turn more, without going over the top.

Then everyone gets what they want pretty much on BOTH sides, and it also adds a bit more incentive to get a fleet ship (or the flagships) as well if you know you are going to have the turn rate buff.

This wouldn't affect lockbox ships at all though.

Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 59
12-14-2012, 01:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mimey2 View Post
Here's a simple idea that everyone here can feel free to ignore:

Why not give the Fleet versions of all these ships (and the flagships), the turn rate buff?

I mean, a good portion of ships have a Fleet version. Everything from the Excelsior to the B'rel.

Maybe not to the escorts and BoPs, but at least all the cruisers and sci ships. Perhaps it could be an 'efficiency' thing in a way? The lower the base turn, the more it gains? Now it wouldn't be an 'equalizer', it wouldn't allow a Fleet Negh'var turn as well as the Fleet Vor'cha, but it would help a lot.

In turn, some cruisers like an Excelsior would get a nice bump up to turn more, without going over the top.

Then everyone gets what they want pretty much on BOTH sides, and it also adds a bit more incentive to get a fleet ship (or the flagships) as well if you know you are going to have the turn rate buff.

This wouldn't affect lockbox ships at all though.
I rather like this idea. Say a 10-20% buff for fleet versions? I mean it does state that fleet versions are basically maximized ships are they not? The only catch here would be that the Odyssey and Bortasqu (the ships that would benefit the most from this) won't get it, since they don't have fleet versions. Or you could finally have a reason to get those pieces of trash in the fleet store over the c-store ones. Or not. But good idea.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Tired of Wasting EC and Time trying to get Superior Romulan Operative BOffs? Here's a cheap and easy way to get them, with an almost 100% chance of success.
Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 598
# 60
12-14-2012, 05:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by travelingmaster View Post
And I'll say the same thing that I likely say to any feddie wanting the equivalent of a battlecruiser: USE A KDF TOON!!! Stop suggesting that you be given cruiser traits that are more in line with the KDF, and just effing use a KDF toon. Buy a Vor'cha, and maneuver your heart out. Or fly a gimped Qin raptor (which Cryptic refuses to fix) that flies like a cruiser.

Enough with these god@mn threads asking for buffed cruiser turnrates.
Too, bad.
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