Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,489
# 11
12-17-2012, 09:26 PM
1.) Armor does not have diminishing returns.

It just seems that way because what the armor is actually doing versus what you think it's doing, is not the same thing.

Explained here.

2.) Shields versus hull

Shields can ignore a very high percentage of damage with a low equipment cost, since shield resistance is based primarily on your shield power level but also your bridge officer abilities. The same abilities that restore your shields also usually "harden" them so they take less damage. Hence the massive and enduring popularity of Emergency Power to Shields and Transfer Shield Strength. Gaining significant hull damage resistance requires that you have and spend a whole bunch of engineering consoles while gaining significant shield damage resistance is about jacking up your shield power level and knowing when to use shield hardening abilities.

For non-resilient shields, 10% of the incoming damage is going to leak through your shields no matter what. It's very easy to have your hull melted to slag while your shields are still strong and all your shield-related abilities are working at maximum efficiency. That is why you should have at least some armor and some hull healing. Resilient shields only leak 5% of the incoming damage, which is basically the same as gaining 50% immunity to all damage through armor as far as the bleed damage is concerned. Though Resilient shields tend to have other drawbacks, like a lowered capacity or lowered recharge rate.

I will second the notion that the engineering consoles that boost shield power level are a very very poor "value" and should generally be avoided. Pretty much all the power boost consoles are very inefficient use of slots.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,351
# 12
12-17-2012, 09:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by princedimwit View Post
I thought that was if you stacked the same console.
Look at what Heriticknight had said in the post that I responded to:

Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
A standard setup for a 3 engi console is 2 neutroniums 1 monotanium. A standard cruiser setup is 4 neutronium. If you have only 2 engi consoles available, just run double neutronium. If you have 3 available, you can either run triple neutronium, or double with a mono. If you have 4, just use full neutronium.
He is mentioning using up to four copys of the same console. This is what I was replying to with the "[100/50/25/12.5/6.25]" statement.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,351
# 13
12-17-2012, 09:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by momaw View Post
1.) Armor does not have diminishing returns.

It just seems that way because what the armor is actually doing versus what you think it's doing, is not the same thing.

Explained here.
Actually, I checked it today on my Nebula after discussing it with a fleetie.

Base (No Neutronium MK XI blues): Kinetic 2.0% energy types: 14.4%

1 Neutronium : K=16.3 (+14.3) E=25.3 (+10.9)
2 Neuts' : K=26.7 (+10.4) E=33.6 (+8.3)

If Armor has no dimininshing returns, it would be +14.3 and +10.9 for each Neut Mk XI Blue I wouldve added.

Also, when plugging in the information into an excel spreadsheet and then making a line graph with it, the 1-2 point has a weaker slope than the 0-1 does, it actually "kinks". There would be no "kinks" if it was a (reasonable) perfect liner progression.

This is very parallel to the diminishing returns experienced with RCS Accelerators.

Last edited by whamhammer1; 12-17-2012 at 09:49 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,427
# 14
12-18-2012, 01:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by whamhammer1 View Post
Actually, I checked it today on my Nebula after discussing it with a fleetie.

Base (No Neutronium MK XI blues): Kinetic 2.0% energy types: 14.4%

1 Neutronium : K=16.3 (+14.3) E=25.3 (+10.9)
2 Neuts' : K=26.7 (+10.4) E=33.6 (+8.3)

If Armor has no dimininshing returns, it would be +14.3 and +10.9 for each Neut Mk XI Blue I wouldve added.

Also, when plugging in the information into an excel spreadsheet and then making a line graph with it, the 1-2 point has a weaker slope than the 0-1 does, it actually "kinks". There would be no "kinks" if it was a (reasonable) perfect liner progression.

This is very parallel to the diminishing returns experienced with RCS Accelerators.
There is an extremely small amount of "diminishing returns" due to armor scaling off at 75%. However each console essentially adds the same as the last. There's a translation between the tooltip resistance and the effective in-game resistance which is too convoluted (and it's way too late at night here) for me to get into, but neutroniums (or any other armor) stack just fine.

vids and guides and stuff

[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,610
# 15
12-18-2012, 02:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmerless View Post
There is an extremely small amount of "diminishing returns" due to armor scaling off at 75%. However each console essentially adds the same as the last. There's a translation between the tooltip resistance and the effective in-game resistance which is too convoluted (and it's way too late at night here) for me to get into, but neutroniums (or any other armor) stack just fine.
Simpler version of what shimmerless said:

Due to the cap at 75%, as you increase the amount of resistance you have, each added point of defense will add less to your total resistance.

I.E. 10 resist will give you 10% defense, but 20 resist will only give you 18%.

They do this so you have to have 200 armor (or 5 mk XII purple specialty consoles) to hit the 75% resist. It's basically to force you to have to work hard to tank, and have a build specifically for tanking and nothing else, but only if you want to hit the hard cap.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder. <--- DR proved me wrong!
Career Officer
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 247
# 16
12-18-2012, 05:23 AM
even if they are small there is dim-Re and in his game 2-3+% is not small it's actually pretty big. We're talking up to 15-20+% Dimre in a divice that gives 20% on the extremely high end on the spectrum so you could very well lose an entire item and around 34+M, that's nothing to baulk at as an elite level pvper. That is something to be very-very-very concerned about unless you have the money to throw away then it's fine but most players don't have that kind of money to kick around. It will still be higher of course then a player who only uses one in leaps and bounds but there is still a dim-re. They will not let us be 100% invunerable to damage since everyone would get the 20% to all damage and get like 5-6 of them.

Now weapons tech does not give dimre so you can be as stack crazy as you want with that.

In a way I am happy that polaron for some crazy reason is becoming the new standard for ships. Though I must admit seeing DHC's on a Fed ship just gives me pauses but atleast I won't be seeing that ugly violet all that often and that will be a good trade off. (I'm not really all that sure why a ship with any large amount of people 10+ would be fish tailing and firing cannons like a fighter jet anyway, i mean it just does not make sense, the people inside should be soup and going through crazy bouts of vertigo or something.)

But seriously I think we should stop discussing many topics like this before they go back and nerf that as well.... I feel kind of bad for the guys that did not get the tier four early ad now have to get the 50.6 regen all because players couldn't stop running their flappers kinda messed up how that works out. When we figure out something the dev's and mods don't know then it should become a state secret or something lol so they don't nerf it for months to come. That was like the fastest nerf ever. I've never seen them move so fast to do anything, oh well.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,489
# 17
12-18-2012, 09:38 AM
After spending all morning pressing way too many buttons on my calculator, I will amend my statement and say that yes, armor suffers from diminishing returns.

After testing on my Fleet Negh'var with five identical layers of Neutronium Alloy, I can tell you that the efficiency of each layer of armor in adding its resistance to the previous amount came out to be: 98.3%, 94.9%, 92.0%, 86.1%, and 81.5%.

The total loss of performance across five layers of armor was just under half of one of the consoles i.e. about 1/10th of the potential. It's up to the reader to decide if this is a significant loss of performance.

Personally I'm not convinced that it's entirely deliberate given the erratic way the numbers jump around, and I strongly suspect rounding errors in the game's code.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,351
# 18
12-18-2012, 12:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by momaw View Post
After spending all morning pressing way too many buttons on my calculator, I will amend my statement and say that yes, armor suffers from diminishing returns.

After testing on my Fleet Negh'var with five identical layers of Neutronium Alloy, I can tell you that the efficiency of each layer of armor in adding its resistance to the previous amount came out to be: 98.3%, 94.9%, 92.0%, 86.1%, and 81.5%.

The total loss of performance across five layers of armor was just under half of one of the consoles i.e. about 1/10th of the potential. It's up to the reader to decide if this is a significant loss of performance.

Personally I'm not convinced that it's entirely deliberate given the erratic way the numbers jump around, and I strongly suspect rounding errors in the game's code.
I knew I wasn't crazy. It isn't as radical as I suggested (I was going with the dim-re habits of RCS as a hypothesis starting point) but still noticeable to the eye.

I haven't tried it out yet, but the guys in my fleet are pretty sure that using different kinds of armor with each other (neutronium' +monanitum +etc...) does bypass the diminishing returns effect. I've just been okay with the diminishment of the second neut' on my ships, but when I get my Fleet Neb' I will be considering a third of a different type.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,530
# 19
12-18-2012, 01:00 PM
Well, to make it simple: Shields over Armor. Without shields you die. However, this is not important for consoles (since Engineering=Armor, Science=Shields). And healing shields is easier than healing hull.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,351
# 20
12-18-2012, 04:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by woodwhity View Post
Well, to make it simple: Shields over Armor. Without shields you die. However, this is not important for consoles (since Engineering=Armor, Science=Shields). And healing shields is easier than healing hull.
I wouldn't go that far, there are times in PvP when my shields seem to never see the light of day for me, hull is just as important.
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