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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,670
# 11
12-18-2012, 03:22 PM
Quote:
So will the Dominion lockbox be a Jem Heavy Escort? A Jem Battle Cruiser? Or perhaps - just maybe - just perhaps...

Sarr Theln Warship (Fed/KDF)

...are we looking at another carrier?
Don't tease me, mister !
KBF Lord MalaK
Awoken Dead

You're gonna upgrade my Chel Grett for FREE but charge me $27 to upgrade my Kamarag ?
Ensign
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 27
# 12
12-18-2012, 09:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
With the announcement of the Dominion lockbox which caught some folks by surprise (they were expecting a Breen lockbox - but oddly enough, the Breen were part of the Dominion and the way the Ferengi work...they could be Breen ships from back then when they were part of the Dominion)...and the discussion of adding another carrier. Not just any carrier, mind you - but the Sarr Theln.

It was along the lines of the discussion and speculation about what Breen ship would be given out during the Winter Event. Quite a few people joked (or were serious) about the Sarr Theln with the Bleth Choas fighters.

So one thing that's kind of remained a dividing line between Starfleet and KDF carriers has been:

ADR vs. ASD.

Offering a crossfaction Sarr Theln - thus giving the Feds Bleth Choas fighters... well, you're no longer looking as much at that ADR vs. ASD. Then add in whatever the crossfaction console would end up being (likely the Nadeon for KDF and then... AA/Leech/reworked Bio for Fed) - and well... that's where I was seeing the problem.

Earlier in the year I was fighting for the Vesta as a shuttlecarrier. I even acknowledged the possibility of a Heavy Escort Fighter Carrier - some folks brought up variations of the Akira that functioned that way...tada, the Armitage came along. I thought the Kitty Karrier was an April Fool's joke and still laugh whenever I see a Schlong Ship.

Having been in too many fights with pairs of Recluses with the odd Atrox and Armitage thrown in... seeing the Vesta added into that... and then the possibility of the Fed Drain Sarr Theln...?

That's the issue I have with carriers.

But like I said, I think it's more likely that they'll go with the Heavy Escort or even the Battle Cruiser. Doesn't mean the Sarr Theln won't arrive down the road... but for the Dominion lockbox and whatever comes along in the Lobi store... I don't think we're there yet.
I really don't think they'll be adding a Breen carrier to the game. Aside from the fact the last patch updated the Phased Polaron weapons to be read as "Dominion Polaron Weapons" and that the winter ship was already a Breen ship, I'd say a heavy escort or cruiser is more likely. In a previous Ask Cryptic when asked about upcoming ships DStahl mentioned A (as in one) Breen ship that's nearly ready (what I imagine is the Chell Grett) and an Andorian ship before alluding to others. Not that he couldn't have omitted it, but wouldn't it make sense that he'd say there were a few Breen ships in the pipeline?

I'd say it's about as likely we get a Sarr Theln as we do a Karemma ship or some junk. I guess those fighters siphon?
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,648
# 13
12-18-2012, 11:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by egtownsend View Post
I really don't think they'll be adding a Breen carrier to the game.
I don't think they'll be adding it with the Dominion lockbox itself, nor do I even think it will be a Lobi ship at the same time as the lockbox. However, I can see them adding ala the Recluse to the Lobi store down the road.

Quote:
Originally Posted by egtownsend View Post
Aside from the fact the last patch updated the Phased Polaron weapons to be read as "Dominion Polaron Weapons"
Yep, for the lockbox again, eh? Thing is, the Breen were part of the Dominion and given the Ferengi are selling used goods - it doesn't really exclude the potential of a Breen. I don't think it's likely, which is why I started the thread - but it's not something that could completely be ruled out. Both the Breen and Jem'Hadar use Polaron - both were in the Dominion. Still, I think it unlikely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by egtownsend View Post
and that the winter ship was already a Breen ship, I'd say a heavy escort or cruiser is more likely.
Lots of folks have been asking for the Jem'Hadar Heavy Escort since the Bug was released. Even the Battleship is more of a Battle Cruiser. I picture the Heavy Escort in the lockbox and the Battle Cruiser in the Lobi Store.

Quote:
Originally Posted by egtownsend View Post
In a previous Ask Cryptic when asked about upcoming ships DStahl mentioned A (as in one) Breen ship that's nearly ready (what I imagine is the Chell Grett) and an Andorian ship before alluding to others. Not that he couldn't have omitted it, but wouldn't it make sense that he'd say there were a few Breen ships in the pipeline?
That may simply be a case of reading too much into it. They redid the models for all the Breen ships. The Chel Grett console states that it can be used on any Breen ship. Yes, they've said that just leaves the door open for them to do others at some point - but with the way Cryptic does things, it's more likely that you could use it on other Breen ships before it had the tooltip saying you could than it having the tooltip and there not being other Breen ships in the works.

And yep, we've got the Andorian that was rumored to be a Battle Cruiser - but is now an Escort. We've got the Anniversary ships - Ambassador and K'Vort? The Dominion lockbox ship(s)... S8 and possibly more KDF ships? Perhaps in S8 we'll see the Romulan lockbox.

But yeah, back to where we are and the near future, eh?

The Vet Ships - Heavy Destroyers.
The Armitage - Heavy Escort Carrier.
The Chel Grett - "Warship"...cross between a cruiser and heavy destroyer.
Dominion lockbox - Heavy Escort/Battle Cruiser...just kind of makes sense.

Even with the Andorian, given the previous rumors about it being a Battle Cruiser and then being called an Escort - I'm still picturing Heavy Escort and not zipzipzoom Escort.

I think 2013's going to be the year of the Heavies. Ambassador as a form of Advanced Heavy... the K"Vort as a Heavy BoP or Heavy Raptor.

2014... I'm picturing Dread Variants along the lines of the Ody and Bortas.

But now I'm just rambling from lack of sleep...lol.


"Wheeeee, this is kind of fun. Oopsie...my bad."
Fleet Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
Endless, Hazari Destroyer
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 341
# 14
12-19-2012, 03:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Engineer Ground to Space:

Reroute Power to Shields ---> Rotate Shield Frequency. Fine.
Cover Shield ---> buy a Phalanx Science Vessel for the Barrier Field Generator. Not fine.
Support Drone Fabrication ---> use Scorpions, drop deployable Turrets, roll a Sci for Photonic Fleet, or fly a carrier. Not fine.
Orbital Strike ---> almost any generic attack. Not fine.

That's the Engineer... discussing Engineer BOFF abilities would be another discussion. One I've had plenty of times about how things are missing from ground unlike Tac and Sci.

Carriers don't give the Engineer anything... since anybody can fly them. In a sense, it's making the argument that Tacs and Scis should be able to experience the Ground Engineer as much as the Engineer.

They need to address the mess that exists between Engineers on the ground and space (innate abilities as well as BOFF abilities).
Since anyone can fly any ship and use whatever BOFF Abilities said ship allows for, when you look at the class-specific skills, Engineers bring nothing to the table in Space. They're mostly survival instincts that, yes, in PvE can mean the difference between life and death but don't really have much of an impact in PvP. No Debuffs, Engineering Fleet is kind of a joke.

If anything, I think the whole Skill System needs to be revamped and tailored to each class with 2 specs for each class to choose from or mix.

Tactical Captains would be able to spec into boosting energy weapons Damage, Hit/Accuracy, Crit/Severity in one tree and in another tree could spec into Defense, Engines, Maneuverability, Disable Resistance

Science Captains would spec into either Shield Stripping, Resistance Debuffs, Power Drain/Siphon boosting abilities in one tree and in the other spec into buffing CC abilities like GW, TR, VM, CPB.

Engineering Captains would be able to spec into Shield Buffing, Resistance Buffing, Power Management/Transfer Efficiency in one tree while in another tree could spec into a Demolitions type that would boost kinetic weapons (torps, mines, and yes cutting beam), signicantly increasing their Damage, Crit/Severity, Hit/Acc as well increasing the effectiveness of whatever CC after-effects certain kinetic types produce (ie Plasma Torps/Mines, Tric Torps/Mines, Tachyon Trops/Mines etc). The Demo Tree would also boost Carrier Pets and Turrets.

Then there could be Neutral Tree available to all classess that boost power levels, shield and hull healing.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,324
# 15
12-19-2012, 03:15 AM
Beautiful!
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Promote what you love, instead of bashing what you hate.
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Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,648
# 16
12-19-2012, 03:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by doomicile View Post
Since anyone can fly any ship and use whatever BOFF Abilities said ship allows for, when you look at the class-specific skills, Engineers bring nothing to the table in Space. They're mostly survival instincts that, yes, in PvE can mean the difference between life and death but don't really have much of an impact in PvP. No Debuffs, Engineering Fleet is kind of a joke.
I've been arguing as long as I can remember, about how the 5 innates for Tac and Sci in space reflect a transition of some sort of what they do on ground. Yet, for the Eng - it's a huge pile of steamin' and stinkin' WTF. That what would have been part of the Eng's transition from ground to space either ended up with another career or in the C-Store...er...Z-Store now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by doomicile View Post
If anything, I think the whole Skill System needs to be revamped and tailored to each class with 2 specs for each class to choose from or mix.
I'm not a big fan of such systems. It makes it harder to make "your character" and it becomes more along the lines of just playing an action game instead of a RPG.

Quote:
Originally Posted by doomicile View Post
Tactical Captains would be able to spec into boosting energy weapons Damage, Hit/Accuracy, Crit/Severity in one tree and in another tree could spec into Defense, Engines, Maneuverability, Disable Resistance
They can already do that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by doomicile View Post
Science Captains would spec into either Shield Stripping, Resistance Debuffs, Power Drain/Siphon boosting abilities in one tree and in the other spec into buffing CC abilities like GW, TR, VM, CPB.
They can already do that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by doomicile View Post
Engineering Captains would be able to spec into Shield Buffing, Resistance Buffing, Power Management/Transfer Efficiency in one tree while in another tree could spec into a Demolitions type that would boost kinetic weapons (torps, mines, and yes cutting beam), signicantly increasing their Damage, Crit/Severity, Hit/Acc as well increasing the effectiveness of whatever CC after-effects certain kinetic types produce (ie Plasma Torps/Mines, Tric Torps/Mines, Tachyon Trops/Mines etc). The Demo Tree would also boost Carrier Pets and Turrets.
Outside of boosting pets/turrets, they can already do that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by doomicile View Post
Then there could be Neutral Tree available to all classess that boost power levels, shield and hull healing.
And everybody can already do that.

Though, pretty much everybody can already do all of that (again, outside of the pet boosting).

The only thing that separates the three career choices are the five innate abilities.

Could grab any build out there for any ship - same BOFF layout, same skill build, etc... the only thing that would be different for an Eng piloting it compared to a Tac would be those five innate abilities. Tac instead of Sci? Just the five abilities.

Tac: Attack Pattern Alpha, Fire on My Mark, Tactical Initiative, Go Down Fighting, Tactical Fleet
Eng: Rotate Shield Frequency, EPS Power Transfer, Nadion Inversion, Miracle Worker, Engineering Fleet
Sci: Sensor Scan, Subnucleonic Beam, Scattering Field, Photonic Fleet, Science Fleet

That's it - the only difference in space.

Rather than touch the skill tree, I wish that space worked more like kits on the ground or even like the new rep system.

You're ready to pick your first ability - you have two options. That's right, it's not a case that you automatically get one of the five above - but you have a choice of two for each one. Okay, maybe it's a choice of two for four of the five (odd how this looks like the rep system, eh? 4 choices and a fixed? Wonder if they've been thinking about this too?).

It would not be as open as the rep system choices - it would be more along the lines of how the Romulan and Omega rep vary - each offers a choice of an offensive or defensive passive, but they are not the same choices for each. Romulan offers +3% crit, while Omega offers +30 Weapon Skill - both offensive passives, but different.

So for Tac, Eng, and Sci - each would have a choice of an "offensive" or "defensive" ability for each of the first four abilities... each would reflect the nature of the career.

A Tac offensive ability would not be the same as a Sci offensive ability would not be the same as an Eng offensive ability. The same for the defensive option for each.

A person could build a more offensive Engineer, a more defensive Tactical, or even a 50/50 offensive/defensive Science... or the defensive Engineer, 50/50 Tac, etc, etc, etc, etc.


"Wheeeee, this is kind of fun. Oopsie...my bad."
Fleet Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
Endless, Hazari Destroyer
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,324
# 17
12-19-2012, 04:09 AM
That is... even more beautiful.
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Promote what you love, instead of bashing what you hate.
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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 341
# 18
12-19-2012, 04:41 AM
That'd be fine, too. So long as each class shines and differentiates with those abilities. The only issue I might have with the Kit Innate system it seems less defined lest Cryptic do extensive testing and make sure the numbers balance between each class.

I know most people don't like restrictions and nor do I but currently, having every skill available to every class, some classes benefit more, when combined with some of their innate abilities, than others when they really shouldn't. Classes at this point are meaningless, Engineers even moreso.

Tacs generally spec for Damage but need only throw a few points around to tank just as well as a Sci Cap or Engineer.

Sci Caps generally spec for their Debuff and CC abilities which over time allows them either by team or alone have just as much competative capability.

Engineers just don't really shine in anything. They can heal, dps and tank but no better than anyone else.

It isn't any one thing but a combination various abilities, consoles and innates that serve some classes better than others.

But I'm all for either if Cryptic can just get the numbers right.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,325
# 19
12-19-2012, 05:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Count the non-carrier ships before the start of the year.
Count the carrier ships before the start of the year.

Look at the percentage increase of carrier ships.
Look at the percentage increase of non-carrier ships.

Three times as many carriers now as when the year started.
Are there three times as many non-carriers?
Well, lets think about that for a moment, without looking ingame, without checking the wiki, just off the top of my head this year from your counting...

You were generous enough to count the Vesta three times as single ships, whoich i would not have done, so i'll be equally generous with my count.

Tholian Orb Weaver
Fleet Defiant,
Fleet Advanced Escrort,
Fleet Patrol Escort,
Destroyer,
Fleet Destroyer,
Mobius Destroyer,
Wells Science Ship,
Galor
D'kora
Fleet Galaxy,
Regent Assault Cruiser,
Fleet Assault Cruiser,
Fleet Excel,
Fleet Nova,
Fleet Nebula,

Thats just off the top of my head, i'm sure there are more and i'm not even counting the Klink side as there are so many varients of the same ship i get confused.

I think, you should re-evaluate the ratio.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,648
# 20
12-19-2012, 05:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aquitaine985 View Post
Well, lets think about that for a moment, without looking ingame, without checking the wiki, just off the top of my head this year from your counting...

You were generous enough to count the Vesta three times as single ships, whoich i would not have done, so i'll be equally generous with my count.

Tholian Orb Weaver
Fleet Defiant,
Fleet Advanced Escrort,
Fleet Patrol Escort,
Destroyer,
Fleet Destroyer,
Mobius Destroyer,
Wells Science Ship,
Galor
D'kora
Fleet Galaxy,
Regent Assault Cruiser,
Fleet Assault Cruiser,
Fleet Excel,
Fleet Nova,
Fleet Nebula,

Thats just off the top of my head, i'm sure there are more and i'm not even counting the Klink side as there are so many varients of the same ship i get confused.

I think, you should re-evaluate the ratio.
There were 67 ships or so, no?
They added 74 ships or so, no?

Overall, they added 110% - or there were 210% as many ships...

There were 5 carriers, no?
They added 10 carriers, no?

So they added 200% - or there were 300% as many carriers...

So not counting the carriers in those original numbers...

There were 62 ships or so, no?
They added 64 ships or so, no?

They added 103% - or there were 203% as many non-carrier ships...

So, let's review:

Added 200% vs. added 103%.
300% as many vs. 203% as many.

Originally, they made up 7.4% of available ships.
Then they made up 10.6% of available ships.

What ratios do I need to review again?


"Wheeeee, this is kind of fun. Oopsie...my bad."
Fleet Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
Endless, Hazari Destroyer
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