Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 434
# 11
12-20-2012, 05:03 AM
It's making the issues of power/ability spam that much worse by bring cool downs unnecessarily too far down.

It doesn't circumvent the global directly, but by bringing the cool down to global levels, with some abilities they are still having an effect while its ready to be used again. Whereas using the Team doffs only effects a specific Team, Technicians effect everything and provide additional benefits. In the past, if you wanted to protect or exploit (not the bad kind) something you tied up a couple of valuable ability slots. In this case you basically double up on everything and it costs a few doff slots with an Aux2Bat.

The standard, most basic, buils is two EPtS, two Teams, two weapon abilities, two heals like hazards or transfer shield strength. In this "niche" build you still get all that and then some because you upon up slots to include additional abilities. That is a more varied build by virtue of being exactly the same plus. Sure, compared to the current cool down reduction, a change would prevent people from almost perfectly chaining a single ability with itself. The real challenge then would be to fill that gap with one of the new abilities you gain by not doubling up AND having to consider cool downs.

We really need to bring the amount of ability spam from doffs, boffs, and universal (entirely unrestricted) consoles down. If having nearly twice as many abilities on a ship is the only way to make it useful then I agree, something definitely needs to be done for that ship somehow. I just don't understand the point of having cool downs at all if virtually negating them is ok.

It's not like this specifically is the biggest issue in the game but we keep spirally away from accessibility and tactics to spam and power creep.
__________________________________________
Foundry: Yet Another Borg Mission
It's terrible but easy, and these Borg are way cooler than the mess STO and Voyager left us.
May not actually be "way" cooler or even "slightly" cooler.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,015
# 12
12-20-2012, 08:06 AM
I was giddy over the changes that let you double up on A2B but I've realized that it's not really as OP as I thought it would be. I certainly don't think A2B builds are dominating PvP.

I think people are tossing out "It only takes a few doff slots" out there a little too lightly. This, by itself, is huge.

If you've ever run it, you should know that you have to run 2 copies. There aren't a lot of ships that can do that without giving up a Ltc slot for it, which is doing it wrong. So we're talking Cruisers.

Tac
Tac, Tac

Eng Eng Eng Eng
Eng Eng Eng

Sci Sci

Every ship has 12 abilities (yes BoPs be quiet OCTD), and if you told me you could get all of them to global I would say that's OP. But you only get 10 because 2 of them are A2B.

Tac
Tac, Tac

Eng X Eng Eng
Eng X Eng

Sci Sci
Even if you run EPTA and have some juice in your Aux tank your heals are going to be pretty much a wash because they'll come up faster but be weaker. I do think a low power HE for the cleanse with better uptime will be increasingly attractive in an age of HYT Plasma, so yeah that's a plus for the build.
Tac
Tac, Tac

Eng X Eng Eng
Eng X Eng

Sci Sci
A Tac is going to get the Tac abilities at global anyway (dead Aux so no healers for you, Tac captains only need apply), so we're really talking about 2 or 3 abilities at global while TI is down which otherwise wouldn't be.
Tac
Tac, Tac

Eng X Eng Eng
Eng X Eng

Sci Sci
2xEPTx at global is common, you're going to run that in a cruiser anyway so nothing special here.
Tac
Tac, Tac

Eng X Eng Eng
Eng X Eng

Sci Sci
Which leaves the 3 top Eng abilities. Here's the whole reason you run this. EWP, perma. RSP at global. Plus 1 more, probably DEM. If you have a problem with perma EWP eating you, yell at drunk. One person murderfacing you with a build doesn't mean it's the build.

So the idea to make this apply only to Eng powers is kind of senseless. Tacs will still have TI, and still get the 3 tac-buffable abilities that are the entire purpose of running this.

But really, do you still think it's OP? Try it out. It boxes you into a very small selection of boff layouts, hamstrings burst healing, and takes 3 doffs and 2 boffs. A cruiser is going to be left without Aux2Sif, so only a watered down HE and maybe ET sharing global with TT for hull heals.

You get 3 high level Eng powers at global (instead of two if you dropped Aux2Batt and just doubled up), Tac abilites at global while TI is down, and weaker heals more often.

Yes, you get power in the other 3 subsystems too, but that's aside from the cd that seems to have people bent out of shape, and we all know nobody ran this before Tech doffs, so be real.

Like I said, drunk has made this shine, so if he's the one stomping a mud hole in your pug-made, sorry it ain't the build it's him.

Now there may be one true secret to real ultimate OP A2B, but I'm not sharing just yet because exchange prices are still ridiculous and I'm not even sure if it will work. I told drunk about it the other night, though. So if you find that I'm the one dominating the arenas you can be sure it's OP because in that case it won't be any talent on the part of the pilot.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,136
# 13
12-20-2012, 08:26 AM
Engineer Captain
Dual AtB
EPtA
Energy Siphon
EPS Power Transfer
Plasmonic Leech
(and when available, the AMACO Shield)

You're not going to have Aux issues. You'll spend most of your time at 125/125/80-90+/125. Heck, the Eng Pwr will likely be higher with the AMACO.

There's a bug in the system that it doesn't always drain Aux for the AtB, sometimes you'll even get the Aux from the AtB that it's giving Wep/Shd/Eng so you'll have more Aux than you started with - course, there's also the bug where it will sometimes zero Aux. When that happens, you pop an Aux battery and you're fine again - back to the steady bug of it not draining Aux and the Aux battery will likely be off of CD before you zero Aux again.

They've obviously not tested running dual AtB with 3 Tech DOFFs in conjunction with Engineers, EPtA, Energy Siphon, Leech, etc, etc, etc.

Still, I think it's a management nightmare and I definitely give props to those that can pull it off seamlessly. For me, I prefer the simpler route of running DCEs and Conns for TT and EPtS/EPtW.
Vice Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
V.S.S. Oracle, D'Kyr-class Science Vessel
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 154
# 14
12-20-2012, 08:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevehale View Post
It's making the issues of power/ability spam that much worse by bring cool downs unnecessarily too far down.

It doesn't circumvent the global directly, but by bringing the cool down to global levels, with some abilities they are still having an effect while its ready to be used again. Whereas using the Team doffs only effects a specific Team, Technicians effect everything and provide additional benefits. In the past, if you wanted to protect or exploit (not the bad kind) something you tied up a couple of valuable ability slots. In this case you basically double up on everything and it costs a few doff slots with an Aux2Bat.

The standard, most basic, buils is two EPtS, two Teams, two weapon abilities, two heals like hazards or transfer shield strength. In this "niche" build you still get all that and then some because you upon up slots to include additional abilities. That is a more varied build by virtue of being exactly the same plus. Sure, compared to the current cool down reduction, a change would prevent people from almost perfectly chaining a single ability with itself. The real challenge then would be to fill that gap with one of the new abilities you gain by not doubling up AND having to consider cool downs.

We really need to bring the amount of ability spam from doffs, boffs, and universal (entirely unrestricted) consoles down. If having nearly twice as many abilities on a ship is the only way to make it useful then I agree, something definitely needs to be done for that ship somehow. I just don't understand the point of having cool downs at all if virtually negating them is ok.

It's not like this specifically is the biggest issue in the game but we keep spirally away from accessibility and tactics to spam and power creep.
And to repeat it again, there are only a handful of ships where double Aux2Bat is possible and/or makes sense at all. All Aux2Bat does is bring a couple ships almost on-par to other ships, it makes things like tac cruisers viable. You really think those tac cruisers, vet ships and maybe a few BoPs or sci ships are responsible for all ability spam?

I don't know if or how many double Aux2Bat builds you've flown, but you seem to be unaware of how much healing you actually trade in for reduced tactical cooldowns and a little bit more control. Also, you have to consider cooldowns with these builds a lot, not even speaking about the time were you have zero or low aux power and your aux battery is on cooldown.

I honestly don't know about the bug virusdancer talked about. I fly a couple double Aux2Bat builds on both sides and never ran into this. Even if, again, in such case the bug would have to be fixed and not the whole possibilities of such builds has to be rendered useless. It's not like my Fleet Excelsior is dominating the battlefield and suddently Defiants stand no chance in comparison.
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decker999
Join Date: Aug 2010
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,397
# 15
12-20-2012, 09:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by scurry5 View Post
I'm not really for the idea. As it is, it is true that the cooldown reduction is very useful. However, one has to bear in mind that using Aux2Bat has a very large opportunity cost. It

a) Takes up one or even two Lt BoFF slots that could be used for other things

and

b) Dampens Aux power significantly. Due to the fact that many standard heals rely on Aux power, this renders an Aux2Bat user more squishy with his weaker heals.

Furthermore, to achieve sufficient benefits from the cooldown reduction to warrant slotting Aux2Bat, three Purple technicians are often needed. Taking up 3 out of your 5 available active DoFF slots carries, again, a significant opportunity cost as that person would lose out on many other useful Doff abilities.

In other words, I believe that the large opportunity cost of mounting the Technician combo renders the Doffs fairly balanced, if just a smidgen on the OP side.

Finally, affecting engineering powers alone would not be a good way of nerfing Technicians, IMO. This is because using the lieutenant stations for A2B would then be almost the same as running copies of engineering powers in those two stations.

Just my two cents.
Please don't say that using an aux to bat build weakens a ship significantly due to aux being lower. Use a battery.

Please don't say that using 3 doff slots is a significant opportunity cost. Anyone that stacks doffs uses up 3 slots. So that's not an unusual cost burden to this build. It is not worthy of note. It improves ALL boff abilities. That is unusual to this buid. That is significant.

Using Aux to batt is an actual ability. It has a benefit just from using it, and that benefit isn't small. So although it may not be a stellar ability, it isn't a useless one.

Affecting engineering powers alone would be a GREAT way of nerfing this build. No one would use it. Ever. It would be garbage. I don't see how that would be bad.

This isn't my two cents. I used the change from your two cents that you left on the counter.

It was a nickel.


Cheers and happy reduced cooldowns!!
If I don't respond to posts on this forum don't be offended. I don't sub or follow any of them.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,136
# 16
12-20-2012, 09:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by decker03 View Post
I honestly don't know about the bug virusdancer talked about. I fly a couple double Aux2Bat builds on both sides and never ran into this. Even if, again, in such case the bug would have to be fixed and not the whole possibilities of such builds has to be rendered useless. It's not like my Fleet Excelsior is dominating the battlefield and suddently Defiants stand no chance in comparison.
The zero Aux thing I've seen on different captains, different builds, etc, etc.

The uber Aux thing I've only seen on Engineers using EPS PT, EPtA, and either Energy Siphon or Plasmonic Leech (or Leech and Siphon). It's as if their formula simply can't handle the variables being thrown at it. A Sci using EPtA and ES or Leech or Leech/ES - I haven't seen it. I've not run AtB with a Tac to see anything.

AtB is (-Aux, +Wep, +Shld, +Eng)
EPS PT is (+Wep, +Shld, +Eng, +Aux)
ES is (+Wep, +Shld, +Eng, +Aux)
EPtA is (+Aux)

So it normally goes something like this:

AtB Aux-, Wep+, Shld+, Eng+
EPtA Aux, Wep+, Shld+, Eng+
EPS PT Aux+, Wep++, Shld++, Eng++
ES Aux++, Wep +++, Shld+++, Eng+++
AtB Aux+, Wep++++, Shld++++, Eng++++

Course, that first AtB's going to be wearing off, to the + for Wep/Shld/Eng's going to drop off and the - for the Aux will wear off. W/S/E will still generally sit at max visible. Aux will end up being higher than it was, because it's going to add back in what it lowered instead of putting it back to where it was. So if you lost say 50 Aux, it will give you 50 Aux back... even if you've already gotten some of that back in another manner. So you'll end up with the uber Aux.

Likewise, going the other way - if you've buffed the Aux through EPS PT, Siphon, etc, sometimes it will not drain the Aux when you AtB - until later - and bam - you'll end up with zero Aux.

Given the CD on EPS PT... it tends to coincide with having an Aux Battery ready for that zero Aux issue.

It's an Engineer thing - so it's not going to provide the wickedness that a Tac or Sci could possibly pull off - because you're also looking at the limited ships you can do it in.

Also, you're extremely vulnerable to power drains and Aux targeting. Zero Aux, although it's not actually a disable - has the affect of one - you can't use anything that is affected by Aux - those abilities grey. I once ran without EPtA (was trying EPtS and EPtE) and forgot Aux batteries... that was painful. I had no Aux for almost 2 minutes...it was just because EPS PT was available again.

I really think it's just a case that the formula can't handle having that many variables thrown at it - it doesn't keep track of the +Aux and -Aux very well with all the different timers.

Needs to drop Aux for A amount of time because of the first AtB.
Needs to drop Aux for B amount of time because of the second AtB.
Needs to add Aux for C amount of time because of EPtA.
Needs to add Aux for D amount of time because of EPS PT.
Needs to add Aux for E amount of time because of Energy Siphon.
Needs to add Aux for F(1-15) amount of time because of Leech(1-15).
Needs to add Aux for G amount of time because of MACO Shield.
Needs to add Aux for H amount of time because of Breen Dissipator.
Needs to add Aux for I amount of time because of Aux Battery.
Needs to add Aux for I amount of time because of EPM.

When you add in the recharge on some of these abilities bringing them to a cooldown or triggered CD or below it - then you're also looking at it having to account for X ability adding Aux multiple times and when it needs to drop off that Aux.

So yeah, on my Engineers I've seen the uber Aux, AtB not using Aux, and zero Aux... never tried AtB on a Tac and the one time I tried it with a Sci for about a week I never saw the issues like I have on Engineers.

edit: And again, even with keybinds - I think it's a management nightmare in PvP - it's simpler in PvE, but in PvP - there's just too much going on for me to give the attention I need to the battlefield while trying to manage the AtB stuff. Also, since AtB doesn't affect triggered CDs - for many things it's kind of pointless. You'll end up using the first ability again before you're able to use that second ability or second copy of the first ability. There are definite downsides to it even beyond the zero Aux issue.
Vice Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
V.S.S. Oracle, D'Kyr-class Science Vessel

Last edited by virusdancer; 12-20-2012 at 09:35 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 154
# 17
12-20-2012, 09:54 AM
Hmm, guess I have to get a closer look at my KDF engineer then. The zero aux issue is indeed a pain, always a pleasure when your tractor beam suddenly shuts down every now and then

As for the management thing. It is possible to do it all manually, but with keybinds personally I find it not much of an issue. Just run EPtX on your spacebar and apply Aux2Bat manually or both on your spacebar for a little less control. You should get used to it after a couple matches.
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decker999
Join Date: Aug 2010
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,475
# 18
12-20-2012, 10:10 AM
After using Aux2Batt your Aux is dropped to 5. It will drop to zero is any or the following happen:

1. Your Aux was boosted and loses its boost. Eg you use plas leech and stopped shooting or use MACO and are no longer being shot at or use a boff ability like Energy Syphon prior to using Aux2batt and it weres off.

2. You use Aux2batt w/a high Aux preset, then move to another preset w/a lower Aux value.

3. Someone drains the last bit of Aux you had or their pet does.

4. You use something like Aux based weapons that drains your Aux further.

For the Fleet Torkaht as an example I could w/using 1 Aux2batt have rsp1 x2, dem 3x2 and epts3 x nearly 2. That's basically an extra lt boff to counter the aux2batt slot, an extra commander and lt commander boff. Not to mention the boosts it gives to the cooldowns of other Boff powers.

As I mentioned before compare that to the price the KDF Fleet BoP pays for having a 2nd Lt Commander Boff, 16k hull ...

Or compare it to the chance based Doffs that are needed to just drive the EPTx cooldowns down, or the number of attack pattern doffs needed for the same effect on just attack patterns, or the number of energy weapon Doffs to reduce BO cooldowns, or the number of Tac doffs needed to reduce cannon ability cooldowns. Yet, Tech doffs effect ALL Boffs not just a few.

I agree it can be fun to fly, but that doesn't mean I can't see how out of whack it is compared what else is out there.
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,416
# 19
12-20-2012, 10:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by p2wsucks View Post

Or compare it to the chance based Doffs that are needed to just drive the EPTx cooldowns down, or the number of attack pattern doffs needed for the same effect on just attack patterns, or the number of energy weapon Doffs to reduce BO cooldowns, or the number of Tac doffs needed to reduce cannon ability cooldowns. Yet, Tech doffs effect ALL Boffs not just a few.

I agree it can be fun to fly, but that doesn't mean I can't see how out of whack it is compared what else is out there.
except it makes the "chance based doff for emergency power cooldown" useless because this is a sure thing every time its used.

also, when there is a doff power that is so far reaching it leaves little room to introduce new doffs.

take the team cooldown doff before it was split into 3.

maybe they need to introduce 2 new boff power-

currently we have aux to batteries. it takes from aux and gives power to the other systems.

why not have boff powers that do that but take power from other systems? example- for science take from engines or weapons, and for tactical take from shields or engines.

then make the aux to battery affect only engineer powers and then make the 2 new powers effect their respective trees- the science one would effect science, the tactical one would effect tacitcal.

and then of course whatever power is drained from would boost the other subsystems.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mancom View Post
Frankly, I think the only sound advice that one can give new players at this time is to stay away from PVP in STO.
Science pvp at its best-http://www.youtube.com/user/matteo716
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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 102
# 20
12-20-2012, 10:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by redricky View Post
snipped
Other Aux2Bat layouts for bops:
Tac Tac Tac Tac
Sci Sci Sci
Eng X
Eng X
Or
Sci Sci Sci Sci
Tac Tac Tac
Eng X
Eng X

Both can be fun to mess around with, but I will admit that even with the trade offs already mentioned, it doesn't fully balance out having the rest of your BOff powers at global cooldown.
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