Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,414
# 31
12-20-2012, 01:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ussultimatum View Post
Did mines even have a reason to exist before the recent changes to Dispersal Patterns?
Chronos did. 100% to slow target with each mine. They were quite the pain.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mancom View Post
Frankly, I think the only sound advice that one can give new players at this time is to stay away from PVP in STO.
Science pvp at its best-http://www.youtube.com/user/matteo716
Do you even Science Bro?
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 32
12-20-2012, 01:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maicake716 View Post
Chronos did. 100% to slow target with each mine. They were quite the pain.

And Tricos?

Was anyone seriously using Tricos before the changes to DPB?

Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 715
# 33
12-20-2012, 01:23 PM
Huh, didn't know that.

So why not just roll that back and not let Trics use the dispersal patterns? Seems to be a simpler idea, and less likely to add in more bugs.
Joined September 2011
Nouveau riche LTS member
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,674
# 34
12-20-2012, 01:25 PM
Some teams would use 'em to help against FAW back when FAW was in full effect.

Edit:

And yeah, I never understood why some premades would autofire chronos against PuGs, lol.


Click here and here if you are interested in learning more about PvP.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 35
12-20-2012, 01:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
We're also still in the process of considering some, or possibly all, of the following changes:

- Scaling the damage down on Dispersal Pattern versions of Tricobalts, so that each individual mine does less damage with the more mines you launch. The total damage of the Dispersal Pattern would be significantly reduced if we took this option, but would still far exceed that of what a single Tricobalt Mine would deal. It would look something like the following:
*** Tricobalt Mines created by Rank 1 of Dispersal Pattern Alpha and Beta reduced to 75% of the damage of a standard Tricobalt Mine (x2 mines = 150% of basic mine)
*** Tricobalt Mines created by Rank 2 of Dispersal Pattern Alpha and Beta reduced to 60% of the damage of a standard Tricobalt Mine (x3 mines = 180% of basic mine)
*** Tricobalt Mines created by Rank 3 of Dispersal Pattern Alpha and Beta reduced to 50% of the damage of a standard Tricobalt Mine (x4 mines = 200% of basic mine)
If you can couple that with moving dispersal patterns down a tier each so DPB 3 no longer requires the only CMD level Tac slot on a ship, maybe.

Can you just reduce the damage of Tricos in PvP?

Player ships only have 40-50k hull before resistances, that's why this is such a massive issue. It's not nearly as much of an issue against 1.5 to 2 million points of hull.

Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
- Granting a Point Defense system to Battleship and Dreadnought NPCs that would deal a tiny amount of damage per pulse (<50 dmg, does not ignore shields, no procs), but pulses very frequently and favors the nearest target.
*** This would be a soft-counter to Mine Spam One-Shots, but would have the side effect of making them nearly immune to High Yield torpedoes. (We also have the option of forcing it to target -only- mines, if necessary.)
Dreadnought NPCs are the only ones worth using DPB + Trico mines on in the first place, and they almost universally all have BFAW standard.

If they then had a soft-counter perma PDS spam on top of that I'm pretty sure Tricos and Dispersal Patterns would disappear back into "bad power limbo" from where they recently emerged.


Maybe this is the time to push for NPCs that function more like player ships with player ship values and the ability to actually move and heal themselves and not float helplessly in space soaking damage through sheer, inordinate, amounts of hull and dealing their own 6 figure burst damage onto players.

Or alternatively working on separating PvE and PvP power values to allow for finer tuning for balance.


Last edited by ussultimatum; 12-20-2012 at 01:32 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 36
12-20-2012, 01:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic
- Their damage is significantly reduced by shields, and an unshielded hit is statistically unlikely.
This is a misnomer.

Once you are on the receiving end of 6 figure damage, it completely blows through your shielding like it doesn't exist.


This is why people constantly, and frequently, have been complaining about borg one shot torpedos killing them through full shields and hull.

Player ships are not designed to withstand 6 figure damage in the 200-300K+ range.

Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 363
# 37
12-20-2012, 01:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
- They can be shot down (even accidentally).
- They can be outran.
- They have very lengthy cooldowns.
- Their damage is significantly reduced by shields, and an unshielded hit is statistically unlikely.
- Utilizing a Dispersal Pattern requires up to a Commander-rank Boff Slot.
- Getting the most out of them requires sacrificing Console and/or Doff slots to a dedicated build.

The following changes will appear in a future patch to Tribble (probably in early January):

- The damage dealt by Tricobalt Mine Explosions have been reduced by 10% across-the-board.

- The damage variance of Tricobalt Mine Explosions have been reduced from 20% to 5% (this will lead to more predictable damage ? fewer highs, fewer lows)

- The stealth value on Tricobalt Mines has been reduced by approximately 25% (this should allow them to be seen from about 1k further than previous).

We're also still in the process of considering some, or possibly all, of the following changes:

- Scaling the damage down on Dispersal Pattern versions of Tricobalts, so that each individual mine does less damage with the more mines you launch. The total damage of the Dispersal Pattern would be significantly reduced if we took this option, but would still far exceed that of what a single Tricobalt Mine would deal. It would look something like the following:
*** Tricobalt Mines created by Rank 1 of Dispersal Pattern Alpha and Beta reduced to 75% of the damage of a standard Tricobalt Mine (x2 mines = 150% of basic mine)
*** Tricobalt Mines created by Rank 2 of Dispersal Pattern Alpha and Beta reduced to 60% of the damage of a standard Tricobalt Mine (x3 mines = 180% of basic mine)
T*** ricobalt Mines created by Rank 3 of Dispersal Pattern Alpha and Beta reduced to 50% of the damage of a standard Tricobalt Mine (x4 mines = 200% of basic mine)



We're particularly interested in hearing feedback on these last two options, as we're still deliberating whether or not they are a necessity, or even a good idea.
Clarification to Borticus
Unfortunately, the mines when they're in vast numbers in use they're extremely difficult to effectively combat with generic builds. In which case, people need to reassess their builds before going into the queues.

In other words, I need to put on my tricobalt fighting style before going into the queues. If I run into a tricobalt bomber team, I may have success destroying their mines but not them. This is the pressing issue, people are fighting tric mines, not players in the queues.

Their lengthy cool downs are in junction with brace for impact and other anti mine abilities. Unfortunately, they are at par or fall short. Example: An entire team deploys mines after the team has used their brace for impact. Take reference from Bran, a target caller in TRH Teamspeak will call out for general "Brace for Impact" and the team will deploy due to an imminent tricobalt bombing. Thereafter, a few others lay mines and these abilities are either on cool down or aren't enough to combat the vast number of trics.

One mine brings down a shield facing, and stuns the target thus not allowing them to be able to hit any follow up defenses. The second mine hits, it either destroys you or it puts you in bad ship. However this occurs across the entire team, which means the dispensed heals already are exhausted just from the first two mines per target. There after come the third, fourth, and sometimes 5th mines onto each and every target in a match vs tricobalt premades. This is of course if none of the mines do any AOE, because the explosions from the 2nd mines are enough to finish off targets from AOE. The sacrifices made in their boff/doff/consoles is well off for the investment into a god hammer, it isn't a sacrifice at that point it's a game gene plugged into your NES.

Your generalized assessment about the mines is well mistaken, and very unfounded when considering PvP game play.

Feedback on Proposed Changes:
The proposed changes are a mediocre improvement to say the least. The proposed 10% damage reduction on each mine that hits for an average of 35,000 without critical damage is reduced to 31,500. This is hardly an improvement.

The damage variance nerf is a definite nerf, but the base damage of the mines still were enough even if they did not crit. Example, 35k hit destroyed a shield facing, another 35k brought you below 50% another mine destroys you, provided no AOE from the 1st and 2nd explosions didn't destroy you. Again the amounts of heals used such as hazards cool down is exceeded by tric mine deployment.

The deployment of these mines have evolved Borticus. They're now being hidden in theta radiation, warp plasma, and protected my aceton assimilators from energy weapon AOE. Also, the sheer tactics used, are whats confusing you. These mines aren't just laid out like some traps in some Acme cartoon, the player literally makes you immobile and then drops the mines on you weather its in the aforementioned abilities or not, those mines are dropped at point blank and actively move towards you without any kind of reaction time. Do you fight their immobility tactics or their trics? You sure as heck aren't fighting them at this point, I can tell you that much.

TRH's Master Yoda's proposed Nerf Feedback (Cryptic Version is above)

Tricobalt mines should never of been included in this game if you ask me and many others. Did we need these mines in the first place? The answer is no. People still were able to kill stuff effectively, and in a well coordinated manner, these mines however destroy that whole logistical understanding of the game and create a player base that only know how to hit 1 button, and that's the deployment of mines. With the bootcamp project having 600 sign ups, it is difficult to teach these skills to a group of players that will arguably protest to the idea that everything should have a tricobalt mine on it. Borticus, you once said yourself something about cookie cutter builds, well that's what the tricobalt mine is.

Anyway, back to the provided changes, the scaling is backwards and I'll provide rationale for it:

DP 1: 50% Damage Reduction per mine
DP 2: 60% Damage Reduction per mine
DP 3: 75% Damage Reduction per mine

It was not so much the single mine that threatened PvP game play balance Borticus, it was the vast number of them being used.

These proposed changes will make it difficult for the player to heavily rely on this one weapon to deploy their attack on someone. However, with all the spam in this game, it will be an utmost effective weapon to use against it. I furthermore do also suggest a minor buff to all other mines so they are in competitive statistical values to the tricobalt mine. Or even better, just take the tric mine out of the game.

Thanks for your time.

Last edited by paxottoman; 12-20-2012 at 07:50 PM.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,634
# 38
12-20-2012, 01:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mancom View Post
Fun fact: In the good old days, tric mines were not affected by dispersal patterns.

Problems occured once the current designers thought they knew better than the old ones who originally came up with the system.


And it's only in conjunction with dispersal patterns that tric mines have become a problem. Back when we the game was full of full aux healers with mines in the back, once in a blue moon a tric mine would hit and severely cripple a ship. It was a rare occurrence and nothing that posed a problem for balance.
Psssst don't scare away the current team that is double the size of the old pvp team....
Joined 06.10
PvP 2010-2011
PvP 2012-2013
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 777
# 39
12-20-2012, 01:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mancom View Post
Fun fact: In the good old days, tric mines were not affected by dispersal patterns.
Another fun fact: Nobody was using mines in these days because they didn't to do any noticable damage. Everyone shrugged them off as if they were nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by erkyss2 View Post
Well, IMO, first solution looks just fine. Altho some ppl wll say that some counters dont work on them, actually they do. I`ve been playin a bit with trics on my sci, did some matches to to see what will happen, and how many kills i will get with "one shot". Well result of kills is rly low - why? Mines are easy to counter, in lot of cases when i tryed to kill some1 with them i failed. Tricobalts where destroyed by; CSV, torp spreads, TBR`s, etc etc. OR, my target was very well prepared to mines and had EPtS + TT on (probably even more resistance than that), OR they just ran off like U - KNOW - WHO. Not to mention enemy`s pets, photonic fleet, and enemy`s players mines as well.
Exactly. The only real issues I see with mines in general are their multicrits and the mannheim-device exploit (really, it should be considered an exploit, when time freezes mines should be frozen, too).

I hope the devs don't overnerf them. There is only a thin line between having mines as a viable weapon option and making them completely useless again. As it is most mines never hit a target in PvP thanks to the overall pet and AoE spam. If all these proposed changes hit I fear we will be back to pre-season 6 when mines were just laughable.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,993
# 40
12-20-2012, 01:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
[...]
- Granting a Point Defense system to Battleship and Dreadnought NPCs that would deal a tiny amount of damage per pulse (<50 dmg, does not ignore shields, no procs), but pulses very frequently and favors the nearest target.
*** This would be a soft-counter to Mine Spam One-Shots, but would have the side effect of making them nearly immune to High Yield torpedoes. (We also have the option of forcing it to target -only- mines, if necessary.)

We're particularly interested in hearing feedback on these last two options, as we're still deliberating whether or not they are a necessity, or even a good idea.
[...]
Targetting only mines would be goofy, in my opinion.

But why add such a system at all? There are several ways already that allow to shoot down incoming targetable projectiles: Fire At Will, Photonic Shockwave, Eject Warp Plasma, Acetone Assimilators... I'd say give those ships one or more of those, with the regular boff-trained-to-the-max cooldown.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Promote what you love, instead of bashing what you hate.
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:22 AM.