Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 245
# 51
12-23-2012, 01:22 AM
Make it a skin for the tier 4 Galaxy, just to piss people off.

I'd actually enjoy that to be honest. I still pull out my tier 3 and tier 4 toys every once in a while and use them effectively.

Before the Fleet Tor'Kaht, I used my tier 4 Vor'Cha far more then my tier 5 ship.

Before the HEC came out, my Heavy Escort was the only Fed ship I played..
Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 450
# 52
12-23-2012, 02:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wunjee View Post
Vesta's a $25.00 ship. The Ambassador's likely going to be free to anyone who plays a 10 minute mission, like the original Odyssey was.

Cruisers aren't "losing" the DPS race. They're not even competing. Nor should they be. It isn't their job.

They're almost certainly going to come out with an Ambassador pack shortly after the 3rd anniversary that releases 3 new, better versions of the pack then the free one. Perhaps then, a more tactically-biased ship would be appropriate, but the free one should be little more then a toy, as it's going to be in everyone's hands..I can agree with it being unique (OP's suggestion), but I can't agree with with it being superior, or even equal to, anything that costs real money..

We don't need a free Vesta flying around that everyone can have.
Wow are you serious, did you even read my post? First off I'm not suggesting that this cruiser be any better then those currently available. It has, what I would consider, a decent tac layout, nothing over the top really with a single LTCmd tac officer spot. Also, having 3 tac consoles is basically what the majority of cruisers currently have, other then the star cruiser and free oddy. Also, your comparison with my suggested ambassador and the Vesta is laughable. My build idea does not even come close to being as powerful as the vesta in any of its three forms. It would basically be on-par with the regent and excelsior (who both have LtCmd tac spots) Also, no where did I post this as a possible free version. It's just an idea for a sci-heavy cruiser. While I do agree that cruisers do, and rightly so, less damage then escorts. Most people that run cruisers still put forth an effort to make them do as much damage as possible, at least most people I know do. No one I know has chosen a ship they specifically know will do less damage when another is available to them unless they are specifically in love with said ship. IE people who love next gen flying the galaxy even though its not a very good ship.


U.S.S. Mary Celeste
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 245
# 53
12-23-2012, 02:17 AM
Quote:
First off I'm not suggesting that this cruiser be any better then those currently available.
Your BOFF layout suggests otherwise..

Quote:
It has, what I would consider, a decent tac layout, nothing over the top really with a single LTCmd tac officer spot.
A LtCmd Tac, a LtCmd Sci and a LtCmd Eng. There are no weaknesses in that BOFF setup. It has the best of everything. LtCmd BOFF skills are where the really start to get awesome and you'd be able to have it all. That's what's wrong with your idea. our "cruiser", as was already pointed out--this isn't one (as it lacks a Cmdr Eng)--has no weaknesses. Even the Vestas, which are generally considered wildly OP, lack in Tac and Eng what they gain in Sci. Your build gains in all areas and loses in none. That's why it's ridiculous..

Quote:
(who both have LtCmd tac spots)
And Lt Sci..See the trend here?
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 54
12-23-2012, 03:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikephorus View Post
Wow are you serious, did you even read my post? First off I'm not suggesting that this cruiser be any better then those currently available. It has, what I would consider, a decent tac layout, nothing over the top really with a single LTCmd tac officer spot. Also, having 3 tac consoles is basically what the majority of cruisers currently have, other then the star cruiser and free oddy. Also, your comparison with my suggested ambassador and the Vesta is laughable. My build idea does not even come close to being as powerful as the vesta in any of its three forms. It would basically be on-par with the regent and excelsior (who both have LtCmd tac spots) Also, no where did I post this as a possible free version. It's just an idea for a sci-heavy cruiser. While I do agree that cruisers do, and rightly so, less damage then escorts. Most people that run cruisers still put forth an effort to make them do as much damage as possible, at least most people I know do. No one I know has chosen a ship they specifically know will do less damage when another is available to them unless they are specifically in love with said ship. IE people who love next gen flying the galaxy even though its not a very good ship.
Ooook... here goes...

Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
Capability. What this ship would be capable of with your BOff setup alone is what makes it overpowered. And you say it's balanced? This is a cruiser bro. Cruisers aren't balanced. They lean towards engi.

Your ship has access to high level abilities in ALL categories. That's what makes it "overpowered". Let's take your stock Assault Cruiser as an example. It's weakness is it's Tactically and Scientifically inferior. Especially as science goes. Let's take the other ship you brought up, the Excelsior. It's weakness is science again.

Your ship has no weak point. It has access to level 3 science, engineering, AND tactical abilities. Also given the stats you gave it, it's ability to dominate will be almost unbreakable. You would make most other cruisers obsolete, I daresay you will even challenge, if not outright beat even the Odyssey for how adaptable your ship would be. Your ship isn't a cruiser. Not in the slightest. Allow me to put some facts down for you:

All cruisers (yes, ALL, including KDF battlecruisers) have a Commander level Engineering BOff slot. There is no exception to this rule.

All cruisers are variable in their console layout, always leaning towards one particular strength/weakness (ex. Excel and FAC are tactical and engi oriented with weakness in science, Oddy (freebie) and FSC are science and engi oriented with weakness in tac, Galaxy and Galaxy-r are engi oriented with weakness in sci and tac).

Your cruiser (I shudder to call it that), has NONE of those weaknesses. And to make things worse, it gives up little to nothing in exchange. It is too modular, too adaptable. And you have the gall to call it not op?
Did you even read my post in reference to yours? Starting to wonder here...

Quote:
Originally Posted by wunjee View Post
Your BOFF layout suggests otherwise..

A LtCmd Tac, a LtCmd Sci and a LtCmd Eng. There are no weaknesses in that BOFF setup. It has the best of everything. LtCmd BOFF skills are where the really start to get awesome and you'd be able to have it all. That's what's wrong with your idea. our "cruiser", as was already pointed out--this isn't one (as it lacks a Cmdr Eng)--has no weaknesses. Even the Vestas, which are generally considered wildly OP, lack in Tac and Eng what they gain in Sci. Your build gains in all areas and loses in none. That's why it's ridiculous..



And Lt Sci..See the trend here?
He basically said what I said.

*Picard Manuever*
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Tired of Wasting EC and Time trying to get Superior Romulan Operative BOffs? Here's a cheap and easy way to get them, with an almost 100% chance of success.
Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder.
Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 450
# 55
12-23-2012, 03:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wunjee View Post
Your BOFF layout suggests otherwise..



A LtCmd Tac, a LtCmd Sci and a LtCmd Eng. There are no weaknesses in that BOFF setup. It has the best of everything. LtCmd BOFF skills are where the really start to get awesome and you'd be able to have it all. That's what's wrong with your idea. our "cruiser", as was already pointed out--this isn't one (as it lacks a Cmdr Eng)--has no weaknesses. Even the Vestas, which are generally considered wildly OP, lack in Tac and Eng what they gain in Sci. Your build gains in all areas and loses in none. That's why it's ridiculous..



And Lt Sci..See the trend here?
The Breen ship, which coincidentally they are giving away for free, has a better bridge officer layout then even I'm suggesting here, and console layout as well with 10 to my VA level 9. So if you consider the breen ship ridiculous then I will concede to you that my suggested ambassador layout is just as ridiculous. While my layout does offer some nice LtCmd skills it lacks any Commander level skills which is the trade off. I enjoy flying cruisers and the Ambassador will definitely be a welcome addition, but I really hope it doesn't end up being anything close to captainbmoney's OP. With that said I can see that. in this thread at least, I'm apparently in the minority.


U.S.S. Mary Celeste
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 245
# 56
12-23-2012, 03:58 AM
Quote:
The Breen ship
Is an escort, and as such, comparing it to a cruiser in any way, shape or form is completely invalid.

For an escort, it's BOFF layout is fine. It's virtually identical to the Advanced Escort, swapping only the Ens. Tac for an Ens. Uni..

Last edited by wunjee; 12-23-2012 at 04:07 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 750
# 57
12-23-2012, 04:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikephorus View Post
The Breen ship, which coincidentally they are giving away for free, has a better bridge officer layout then even I'm suggesting here,
The Breen ship is weak on engineering powers. It does not have three Lt. Cmdr powers, so your reply is fail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nikephorus View Post
and console layout as well with 10 to my VA level 9.
And it's a ship you can only get at Christmas if you spend 25 days racing some npc. Not everyone is going to get one. And guess what? You can't get them again afterwards due to them being untradeable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nikephorus View Post
So if you consider the breen ship ridiculous then I will concede to you that my suggested ambassador layout is just as ridiculous.
Actually I do think the Breen ship is ridiculously overpowered as a tactical ship, because it has a strong hull, high turn rate, strong shields, a big crew, and can use dual heavy cannons. But it's not quite as ridiculous as your idea for the Ambassador. At least the Breen ship has reasonable limits to what it can do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nikephorus View Post
While my layout does offer some nice LtCmd skills it lacks any Commander level skills which is the trade off.
A commander level engineer power on a cruiser is worth less than a lt. commander level science or tactical power on that same cruiser. A jack-of-all trades ship that can do three things very well is far more powerful than a specialist ship that can do one thing extremely well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nikephorus View Post
I'm apparently in the minority.
While I don't subscribe to the idea that the majority is always right, in this case the majority have the facts on their side.

Last edited by fulleatherjacket; 12-23-2012 at 04:09 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 58
12-23-2012, 04:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikephorus View Post
The Breen ship, which coincidentally they are giving away for free, has a better bridge officer layout then even I'm suggesting here, and console layout as well with 10 to my VA level 9. So if you consider the breen ship ridiculous then I will concede to you that my suggested ambassador layout is just as ridiculous. While my layout does offer some nice LtCmd skills it lacks any Commander level skills which is the trade off. I enjoy flying cruisers and the Ambassador will definitely be a welcome addition, but I really hope it doesn't end up being anything close to captainbmoney's OP. With that said I can see that. in this thread at least, I'm apparently in the minority.
Read. What. We. Wrote.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fulleatherjacket View Post
The Breen ship is weak on engineering powers. It does not have three Lt. Cmdr powers, so your reply is fail.



And it's a ship you can only get at Christmas if you spend 25 days racing some npc. Not everyone is going to get one. And guess what? You can't get them again afterwards due to them being untradeable.



Actually I do think the Breen ship is ridiculously overpowered as a tactical ship, because it has a strong hull, high turn rate, strong shields, a big crew, and can use dual heavy cannons. But it's not quite as ridiculous as your idea for the Ambassador. At least the Breen ship has reasonable limits to what it can do.



A commander level engineer power on a cruiser is worth less than a lt. commander level science or tactical power on that same cruiser. A jack-of-all trades ship that can do three things very well is far more powerful than a specialist ship that can do one thing extremely well.



While I don't subscribe to the idea that the majority is always right, in this case the majority have the facts on their side.
Hey fulleather, I don't think he even read my post at all explaining why his idea was silly. Because everything you just said, and wunjee just said... was quite clearly explained when I said why 3 LtCmdr slots was just stupid. -.-

But basically, WHAT ABOVE POSTER SAID.

Sorry Nike, but you really need to rethink what you think is balanced.

One Cmdr level Engineering power is NOT equal to 2 LtCmdr slots. It just isn't. There's a reason all but a very select few ships in this game only have 1 Cmdr and 1 LtCmdr BOff. That's because that's what those ships are supposed to SPECIALIZE in. Ex (getting tired of saying this btw). Regent. LtCmdr Tactical, Cmdr Engineering. It's a tactically oriented cruiser. It specializes in Tactical and Engineering powers. But is weak in science. Let's go with your all powerful chel'gret WARSHIP (not cruiser, but WARSHIP). It has a Cmdr Tac, and a LtCmdr Sci. WEAK IN ENGINEERING.

Now. Let's go with your ship. LtCmdr Tactical, LtCmdr Science, LtCmdr Engineering. Um... Um... Um... weak where? Nowhere. Your consoles. 3 Tactical, 3 Science, 3 Engineering. Still looking for a weakness. 4/4 weapon setup, 1.0 shield mod, 39k hp. Still waiting for a weakness. Your ship sir, is just... well sorry to say, it's not balanced. Not in the sense of how balance works in this game. You created a ship that can do it all. With no penalty (other than a lack of Cmdr Engineering, which tbh, there are so few game changing Cmdr level engi abilities, it's almost a null point). Your ship can do more effectively a larger variety of tasks than any other ship currently out there.

Explain to me how this isn't broken. Explain to me how this is a CRUISER for that matter. Explain to me WHY that design should be allowed through. Because if you can do so effectively, and have others actually agree with it, I will retract and remove every comment I made in this thread.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Tired of Wasting EC and Time trying to get Superior Romulan Operative BOffs? Here's a cheap and easy way to get them, with an almost 100% chance of success.
Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 272
# 59
12-23-2012, 04:30 AM
Originally Posted by captiandata1
how about an ambassador battle cruise with 3 commanders only.

a tactial
a science
a engeneering

all with 4 slots each

2 fighter wing bays.

might work with a low crew count let say 400 personal?
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 750
# 60
12-23-2012, 04:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
Explain to me how this isn't broken. Explain to me how this is a CRUISER for that matter. Explain to me WHY that design should be allowed through. Because if you can do so effectively, and have others actually agree with it, I will retract and remove every comment I made in this thread.
Nike's whole argument boils down to:

On a cruiser
Directed Energy Modulation 3 is better than Attack Pattern Omega 1 and Directed Energy Modulation 2

Aceton Beam 3 is better than Attack Pattern Omega 1 and Aceton Beam 1

Eject Warp Plasma 3 is better than Attack Pattern Omega 1 and Eject Warp Plasma 1

Directed Energy Modulation 3 is better than Gravity Well 1 and Directed Energy Modulation 2

Aceton Beam 3 is better than Gravity Well 1 and Aceton Beam 1

Eject Warp Plasma 3 is better than Gravity Well 1 and Eject Warp Plasma 1


And so on with all the other Lt. Cmdr tac and sci powers you could use.

Last edited by fulleatherjacket; 12-23-2012 at 04:40 AM.
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