Lieutenant
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 30
# 21
12-23-2012, 04:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
Sci torp boats are a necessity of needing maxed AUX to have useful Sci abilities (for the most part) combined with the extreme importance of having a high shield power. Something has to give and for most the opportunity cost is just packing torps and hoping for the best.
Quote:
Originally Posted by xiphenon View Post
Increase the energy dmg resistance rating of armor consoles so energy weapons become less effective against hulls (4 neutronium consoles stacked should give 80% energy resistance. point.). At the same time, keep the kinetic dmg resistance at a low level.
Problem sovled.
+1
........10char
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,796
# 22
12-23-2012, 08:21 AM
The sci torp boat thing... I run em as well I would even say I was one of the first to do so... I don't see an ammo system breaking that setup as much as I see it diversifying it.

Right now my standard sci torp boat will put 3 of same type torps in front... a few mines and a beam in back... frankly its sort of boring. Its fire and forget, its as easy a setup for sci as 4 dhc is for an escort... and its about as creative. (now that its a well known setup)

Once my sci gets high enough rep I will put an omega on it... and that will free up 2 forward weapons slots for me... at that point I have lots of other options.

Doffs are the only thing that make a Torp boat work even with 3 forward torps, with out doffs its a super low dps build. I would like to see a system where doffs are a nice bonus and not needed to make the core mechanic work.
When the messenger comes to appropriate your profits ... kill the messenger.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,136
# 23
12-23-2012, 09:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by antoniosalieri View Post
The sci torp boat thing... I run em as well I would even say I was one of the first to do so... I don't see an ammo system breaking that setup as much as I see it diversifying it.

Right now my standard sci torp boat will put 3 of same type torps in front... a few mines and a beam in back... frankly its sort of boring. Its fire and forget, its as easy a setup for sci as 4 dhc is for an escort... and its about as creative. (now that its a well known setup)

Once my sci gets high enough rep I will put an omega on it... and that will free up 2 forward weapons slots for me... at that point I have lots of other options.

Doffs are the only thing that make a Torp boat work even with 3 forward torps, with out doffs its a super low dps build. I would like to see a system where doffs are a nice bonus and not needed to make the core mechanic work.
By running torps/mines - you 25 Weapon Power, and are generally only left with two transitions you make Shield/Aux and Aux/Shield that you primarily worry about. Even there, you might find that you're just running your Aux/Shield and doing fine.

As soon as you start adding energy weapons into it - then you're looking at juggling the power - you're losing efficiency as you juggle the three. There's times that you won't have the Wep Juice you need - won't have the Aux Juice you need - won't have the Shield Juice you need.

Again, it's getting pretty rainbow in there. Not only are you splitting energy and kinetic, but you've got the Bill Nye stuff as well.

The torp/mine damage is going to be constant - the energy damage is going to be low to lower. If you're focused on your Bill Nye, you may even consider dropping any Universals you have in your Tac console slots so you can focus more on your Bill Nye while also making sure you've got your armor.

With the Omega firing as it does, you wouldn't be using any other torps unless you were using a special for them or were using them when the Omega was on CD. If it's a case that it's for a special, well - that gets into wasting a BOFF slot, no? If it's a case of waiting until the Omega's on CD... that's wasting a weapon slot, no? It's just not efficient.

Even on an Escort, when you 25 the weapon power to put more into shields - that extra resistance and regen you get from high shield power's going to help with some of that lacking Eng/Sci. Maybe you even split it Shield/Aux - so the heals you do have work better.

As for the DOFFs, even if you're sitting there waiting on an 8s CD...

1 Torp #1
2 Torp #2
3 Torp #3
4 Torp #4

Here many folks are thinking they're waiting until 9 to fire that first torp again. Are they really just sitting there looking at their target? What's that? There's 3-4 weapons aft?

Yeah, you show them your rear. Torp #5. Torp #6. DPB those mines! When you face them again, guess what? You're front torps are ready to fire again.

What the PWOs allow you to do is cut it down from 4 to 3 or even 2 while adding in things like Tric Torps and Breen Clusters. They let you fire that torp every sec continuously - meaning you can spend more time looking at the target instead of working in showing them your rear.

Say you've got Rapid Trans, Rapid Trans, Breen Cluster, Tric Torp mounted fore - cause you like dropping the chained THY Rapids, firing the Cluster and Tric, while flying past your Tric to DPB your Trans Mine, fire off another THY Rapid, and a Hargh on them - then turn to have your Rapids fire...pew, pew, pew, pew... don't forget the 5% KineticProc on all those torps and mines.

That's just so freaking fun to do...

...and you couldn't do it with the proposed changes without a convoluted keybind setup or sitting there clicking.

Hell, it's also fun to replace those Rapids with Plasmas. Launching four targetables at a person that's not paying attention. For clickety fun, replace the Plasmas with a Hyper-Plasma and an Omega. You'll send six targetables at the target - THY Hyper-Plasma (3 Heavy Plasma), THY Omega (the mini bolt), Cluster, and Tric. You get somebody off to the side, get a teamie to have them burn their CSV and hold, then drop Armageddon on them...

As for the Sci guy, I see a difference between building the Sci guy that's going to use torps and the torp guy that's going Sci. The first guy might be doing any of the regular stuff, the torp guy going Sci is going trans (2x Rapid, Cluster - Rapid, Mine, Cluster) and picking hullbusting Sci abilities.

When I make a torp guy, it even shows in the skill build. 9 Weapon, 0 Energy, 9 Projectile, 0 Energy Spec, 9 Projectile Spec. The ship, all the gear, DOFFs, everything is built around maximizing the torp damage...

...and I really don't see how it's that much different than somebody doing the energy guy. You don't expect DHCs to be awesomesauce without building for it (course, folks are very unlikely to touch the Specialization). Why should it be any different for torps?

I know I'm about the flakiest person talking builds on here... but oddly enough I get by flying my cooky instead of cookie builds...

...I still say that a great compromise would be both.

Just like there's the Omega, but still the Hyper-Plasma, and regular Plasma... they could do "Rapid/Charge" versions of the other torps.

A "Rapid/Charge" would be better than a single torp - but it wouldn't be better than somebody that's built for torps.

It would be like deciding between DHCs and Arrays... what are you flying? This is what you use...
Vice Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
V.S.S. Oracle, D'Kyr-class Science Vessel
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,796
# 24
12-23-2012, 09:37 AM
Its not that I don't understand how it works.

Yes min maxing power levels ect ect...

Think of the options you would have if you didn't HAVE to have 3 torps + doffs to enable any kinda of dps.

Chron DBB / Time Torp / Chron torp (with ammo) ---- Something usable right.

Harpeng / Time Torp-tric-breen cluster / Omega Torp ---- Usable all torp option that doesn't rely on firing away on torps to proc doffs.

Or yes something more like so --- No you can't always run full aux... but frankly thats sort of boring sometimes... I miss my viable energy build recon... would be nice to see those options again.

DBB / DBB / Torp with ammo
Turret Turret Turret


Look I love torps anyone that knows me, knows that.... the current torp system is much better then it was 2 years ago... however there could be a better system. The fact that Cryptic has already implemented the tech to make it happen. yes I am excited about it a full on ammo system would be a great step forward imo.

I want to see torps on cruisers that aren't a joke....
I want to see sci ships firing more then one type of torp...
I want to see escorts adding Torps as a RELIABLE option to provide Dps...

Right now your right mixing is mostly a bad idea... it is not just a form of rainbow its the worst kind... spread out skill points... can't boost both with tac units... having to dedicate more then half your doff slots... not to mention boff skill slots.

The omega torp tech I think is a great starting point to make all that happen. I think the way we have been forced to min max between energy and kinetic has always been bad design. On Cryptics part.

I know this one won't be popular but this is what I would do if I was the game desginer;

1) There wouldn't be Energy and Kinetic on the skill tree there would be one option for Weapon dmg.

2) I would split every single ships tac consoles, into 2 categories, Tac Consoles Energy / Tac Consoles kinetic... This would not only encourage the use of kinetic weaponry... it would almost make it a no brainer.
A Ship like the bug would have 4 Energy console slots... and 2 kinetic slots.
A ship like the Assault cruiser would have 2 Energy Console slots... and 2 kinetic slots.

A system setup more like that would allow Cryptic to sell (now people really hate me)... ship variants based on that mix... they could flog the Mine Laying X Race Sci Ship... that would only have 1 energy weapon slot... but 4 Kinetic.... Ect Ect.

Honestly the fact that we either have ships with nothing but cannons or beams... and ships with nothing torps flying... is not only super un canon, its also terrible game design imo.
When the messenger comes to appropriate your profits ... kill the messenger.

Last edited by antoniosalieri; 12-23-2012 at 09:40 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,136
# 25
12-23-2012, 11:18 AM
It's not a case of being against the idea...as an addition...in the least.

It's easy to see where they could Rep it up, lol.

Deferi Rep - redo the Rapid Trans and look at how a Hyper-Cluster would work.
Bajoran Rep - redo the Chroniton Flux and look at the Hyper-Quantum.
PvP Rep - Rapid Photons/Hyper-Photons...the DHC of torps, eh?
Temporal Rep - Tric and Therm dancing...?

(And you thought people would hate you for suggesting Z-boats that can make better use of different torps - how about the hate I'll get for suggesting all the Mark grinding.)
Vice Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
V.S.S. Oracle, D'Kyr-class Science Vessel
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,796
# 26
12-23-2012, 12:02 PM
LOL ya no doubt... honestly your idea is likely where its going to go... with tier 4 rep always featuring some interesting ammo style torp... to be honest I guess I would even not mind that idea in general.

A complete overhaul would likely piss off more people then it would please.

The more I think about it though...

I think a system where they do just that and add Ammo based interesting torps, to both Zen Store ships (as there unique item), and mabey even as lockbox items and into the rep grind. Could lead to some interesting hybrid torp energy builds that I would be hoping for....

The skill tree could use some work anyway... would it not be great if weapons only needed to be speced into in general... no more energy or kinetic.... and then they could give every ship a once over and split the tac consoles into 2 categories... some ships would end up being much more in line with cannon... think of the steam runner style fed torp boats in cannon, with 2 energy tac consoles but 4 dedicated to torps. It would be a much different system... but it would be one in which slotting one torp would always make sense.
When the messenger comes to appropriate your profits ... kill the messenger.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,395
# 27
12-23-2012, 12:11 PM
The two main issues I've found with torps is that they're very, very slow (to the point where the best way to land torps on hull is by timing separate energy burst on a facing well after the torp salvo's been launched... fun but mechanically goofy) and that their effectiveness against hull is not that much greater than energy weapons.

The effectiveness of energy weapons against hull either needs toning down, or you could compensate like others have said by reducing the crazy innate kinetic resist of shields so that you're not flying around waiting five minutes to use one of your weapons while it sits there idle.

vids and guides and stuff

[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,416
# 28
12-23-2012, 12:19 PM
maybe its not the torps that are slow... but that everything else in the game is too fast?

-mind blown-
Quote:
Originally Posted by mancom View Post
Frankly, I think the only sound advice that one can give new players at this time is to stay away from PVP in STO.
Science pvp at its best-http://www.youtube.com/user/matteo716
Do you even Science Bro?
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,395
# 29
12-23-2012, 12:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maicake716 View Post
maybe its not the torps that are slow... but that everything else in the game is too fast?

-mind blown-
I miss low-level PvP

"Whoa... I'm in, like, the Wrath of Khan" -Neo, Star Trek Online, 2012

vids and guides and stuff

[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,136
# 30
12-23-2012, 12:34 PM
It makes sense that a beam would hit before a torp if both were fired at the same time. They're not warptorps...

Ohhh, warptorps?
Transporter torps?

Boarding Parties that rig bombs...

Did I ask for the Concentrated Tachyon Torps already? I think I did.

And here I'm going to head out to the parking lot behind left field..

Much like Sci Vessels can target subsystems with beams, how about Cruisers being able to modify torps to target subsystems?
Vice Admiral Geist, Klingon Science Officer
V.S.S. Oracle, D'Kyr-class Science Vessel
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:08 PM.